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Thread started 19 May 2008 (Monday) 21:35
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macbook pro

 
hitmanh
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May 29, 2008 09:42 |  #106

jonstewart wrote in post #5611043 (external link)
I think that was my point; MBP memory is bog standard; Not so the MacPro memory, which is what we're talking about.

Not really no, the MacPro use ECC ram, whcih has been a standard component in workstation and server class machines for a good while. It's a standard off the shelf component. I use them in a workstation I built at home and you can buy the stuff anywhere that sells pc components.

As I have stated earlier... Mac hardware isn't special. They do not have anything you cannot buy yourself and fit to your own PC.


"In Photography, as in all arts, the quality of the human imagination is the only thing that counts - technique, and technical proficiency, mean nothing in themselves." CLARENCE JOHN LAUGHLIN
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cory1848
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May 29, 2008 11:52 |  #107

hitmanh wrote in post #5617743 (external link)
Because the mainboard uses EFI rather than the older standard bios found in PCs, nothing more. Vista/XP and older versions of windows do not support EFI.
I'll repeat again, there is NOTHING special in the hardware.
The EFI can be hacked around, every single component can be swapped between the 2 systems.

Sure it can be hacked, but then again you are losing the reliability/dependabil​ity that the hardware AND software provide. Wouldnt EFI be special since Windows doesnt support it? You are contradicting yourself...


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sfaust
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May 29, 2008 13:25 |  #108

flyingwolf wrote in post #5611830 (external link)
Ok folks lets break it down.

After rebates, Monitors were 150 each, 300 USD.
Monitors are 22 inch Sceptre X22WG's.
http://www.sce2ptre.co​m …ions/spec_x22wg​_1080p.htm (external link)
With the rebates it was basically buy one get one free. Couldn't pass it up.

Case, Had a case here that I used, so that was of no expense.

Mobo, MSI K9A2 Platimun,
Combined with AMD Phenom 9500 2.2 GHz Quad core.
Cost of 308.99.
(Rebate of 65 USD brings the price to 243.99).

Memory, 4 gigs of G.Skill, DDR2 800, regular price of 129, instant rebate of 40, price, 89.99. Then Manufactuers rebate of 40. Total price 49.99 x2 = 99.98.

Video Cards, 2 Powercooler AX3650's. 89.99 with a 25 mail in Rebate. Total price 64.99 x2 = 128.98.

So, add it up.

300 + 243.99 + 99.98 + 128.98 = 772.95.

Good so far, but what about the rest? You were comparing your $800 system to a full MacPro system, and challenging anyone to find a MacPro at close to that $800 price. But what you have is no where near a complete system, or even close to a working PC for that $800. I would call that comparison a half eaten apple to a watermelon.

I applaud you for building your own PC. Its not trivial, not rocket science either, yet a nice feat when you get it done and it works. I've built a few myself in the past, and its a satisfying experience. Even better knowing you know that machine well enough to service it in the future when needed.

But your $800 machine falls so far short of a MacPro, or even a 10 year old mac for that matter. I can see why you were called on it. What you are comparing at $800 is a handful of components, and not even enough to finish a working PC at that. All unassembled, untested, no software,non-functionable, and far from plug and play.

There is no power supply included in your price, so it would never function at $800. Also no hard disk, so no way to boot it, store the OS or users data. More money for a keyboard and mouse. More money for a CD-ROM, We can't have all the components lying on my desktop, so a case (nice one at that) would be needed to house everything. Upgrade the video cards, memory, etc. and all the components should be complete for a fair comparison, but at a far greater cost that $800.

And if you are really going to compare them head to head in a fair manner, you would need to hire someone else to assemble it, test it, and install the software for it. That's the way the MacPro comes, so you need to add that value too. It won't be a small bill either. Then pay someone to package it for sale. You would also need to contract with someone to support it, so that just like Apple, the owner can usually find a store within a short drive where they can drop it off to have it serviced. Thats all included in the MacPro price, but left out of your $800 figure.

Its real easy to make something expensive sound cheaper by leaving stuff off. But is not a fair comparison. I could sell you a brand new BMW for half price, if in your garage you happen to have some BMW rims and tires, water pump, rear seats, passenger air bag module, starter, gear shift lever, and transaxle, and don't mind putting it all together yourself. But usually, those cars are stolen recoveries, and in need of hands on help. Not like the service you get when you purchase one from the dealer, are given the key, turn, and go ;)

I'm sure I could show you how I could get a $800 MacPro system, if I were willing to find one without a case, power supply, hard disk, audio card, lower spec processors, lower end memory, lower end video, no keyboard, no mouse, no power cord, no box, no software, no manual, no service, no support, and so on.

Then it would be a fair comparison, yes?


Stephen
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flyingwolf
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May 29, 2008 21:14 |  #109

As stated I had a case, case had a 500 watt PS, more than enough to run the system, add another 105 for the 500 gig SATA II hard drive I had here to go into it (purchased before I purchased the main system).

And yes it was all plug and play, and yes I have done the testing.

So add to my 800 another 105 for the Hard drive, (and I hate to tell you the Mac cases are crap and about as close to underpowered as you can get), a case with power supply for another 100, and the software, Windows Vista Ultimate for 150, now your looking at 1155 toss in a keyboard mouse combo for 30 bucks as that mac KB and mouse are certainly nothing special, and your looking at 1185.
The 30 minutes it takes to put together is 15 bucks (assuming 30 per hour). and you have 1200 dollars.

Is having someone else install the OS and a bunch of crapware really worth your 1300 extra dollars you pay for that Mac?

As for the quip it falls short of a 10 year old mac, last I checked 10 years ago they weren't running Quad core systems.

And your right, mine is no where near a mac, mine can actually do more than a bit of graphics work with a fancy bouncing dock and write emails.

Show me a mac that can run Crysis full screen on full settings DX10 style.

Mac has its place, but when it comes to performance for the price, Mac simply cannot compete at its current price structure.

And on the flip side PC's simply cannot compare to some (not all) of the graphics and audio editing capabilities of the mac.
Though I have never had a problem myself using my PC's for my radio station.


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Little box that holds light.

  
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sfaust
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May 30, 2008 01:47 |  #110

You are missing the whole point. You said you built a PC for $800 that is every bit as good as MacPro for $2,700. Here is you're quote;

flyingwolf wrote in post #5600841 (external link)
I recently built my new work machine, its a Quad core, with 8 gigs of RAM, 2 Dual DVI 1 gig video cards powering two 22 inch monitors.

Its the most powerful machine we have in our house and only comes in second to the demo rig we use as work which cost 7k to build (including the cost of the 50 inch plasma).

Total cost for all of that performance? 779 dollars.

Find me a quad core mac with 8 gigs of matched RAM for under 1000 (and don't forget two 22 inch monitors with a graphics card for each).

Total cost for all that performance. Stated like $800 will get you a machine equal to a quad core mac.

And you were called on it. Come to find out the $800 can't even buy you a functioning pc since it doesn't even include the following;

Power supply - that would cost extra.
Hard disk - that would also cost extra.
Case - yea, thats extra too
Optical storage device - of course its extra
Keyboard - ok, you need to spend more for this also
Mouse - yup, hope you have one lying around.
Audio card - not one of those either
Oh yea, the video cards are lower spec, not the same as the quad core MacPro compared against
Same with the processors, lower spec.
Oh yea, and the memory is lower spec too.

And the prices you are throwing around are bottom basement prices. $15 for a keyboard? No the MacPro keyboard isn't all that great, but its better than any $15 keyboard I've seen by a wide margin. Same goes for the mouse, case, etc.

Now you also just told us it took you 30 minutes to put it together, and that only adds $15 to your price (1/2 hour based on $30 per hour) to the cost. Thats ridiculous!

flyingwolf wrote in post #5600841 (external link)
The 30 minutes it takes to put together is 15 bucks (assuming 30 per hour).

But worse, you previously mentioned;

flyingwolf wrote in post #5604493 (external link)
I spent about a month picking up parts from local stores and online. So there was some work involved there but it took me a whole hour to put together and another 2 hours to install all the needed software (thats not counting the windows installs, its quad booting XP Pro, Xp Pro x64, Vista Ultimate and Vista Ultimate x64).

A far cry from 1/2 hour at $15, no?

Either way, tell me where on this planet can I find a decent computer tech that will do the following for $15. Spec out the computer from scratch. Find all the vendors to order all the parts at rock bottom prices, drive around and pick everything up, fill out the rebates and mail them in, assemble all the components, burn them in, install the OS, install and update the drivers, and deliver to me a working rock solid PC. Oh yea, and since the MacPro you are comparing against comes with phone support and 1 year warranty, that needs to be included on the $800 PC as well.

flyingwolf wrote in post #5600841 (external link)
Is having someone else install the OS and a bunch of crapware really worth your 1300 extra dollars you pay for that Mac?

No, absolutely not.

BUT, if they upgraded the processors, the video cards, added all the components you didn't account for because you already had it lying around, if they assembled it for me, tested it, burned it in, installed all my software, ran a certification process on all components to insure quality, offered 1 year warranty, trained a bunch of people and staffed stores all across the US so when on locating shooting if something happened I could drive it to a local repair facility for repairs, had someone I could call if I had any issues, then yes, it would be worth it. And that would apply for a Mac or PC. And seeing how thats exactly what they have done, yea, it's well worth it to me, and a lot of other people too.

I'm not trying to pick apart your PC, the fact you did save money building it yourself, or the fact that its probably a kick ass machine that works great. But it didn't cost you $800, or even the $1,200 on your last pass. Sure in actual dollars spent you may be hovering around $1,500 or so, but even that I think is low based on the pricing you gave and the things you left out. Nonetheless...

Time is money, and you have a lot of time invested in it. For many, time spent away from family, business, or personal time is expensive, and well worth the extra cost in dollars to gain that free time back. I've built many PC's, and I know the time it takes. It takes hours to get to the first real boot, then hours to configure. And it take hours of searching for the right components, driving to purchase them, etc. I run a business, and have a family like many others. Free time is valuable, and there is a premium.

I've made my point, and you are either going to understand or not. Either way, I don't care, and I'm out of dimes for a last dance. I am more than happy with the plug and play experiences I've gotten from both my Mac and PC purchases, and I have no desire to go back to bench tech days. It was fun then, but I'd rather work, relax with my family, and am happy spending the premium to do so.


Stephen
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hitmanh
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May 30, 2008 04:30 |  #111

cory1848 wrote in post #5618625 (external link)
Sure it can be hacked, but then again you are losing the reliability/dependabil​ity that the hardware AND software provide. Wouldnt EFI be special since Windows doesnt support it? You are contradicting yourself...

ah, what can I say... you are indeed right, Macs are 'special'... they use unique components found no where else in the world and each mac is individucally sprinkled with magical fairy dust and each is blessed by the hand of Jobs in person... :rolleyes:


"In Photography, as in all arts, the quality of the human imagination is the only thing that counts - technique, and technical proficiency, mean nothing in themselves." CLARENCE JOHN LAUGHLIN
www.hitmanh.com (external link)
40D and some luck

  
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hitmanh
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May 30, 2008 04:32 |  #112

cory1848 wrote in post #5618625 (external link)
Sure it can be hacked, but then again you are losing the reliability/dependabil​ity that the hardware AND software provide. Wouldnt EFI be special since Windows doesnt support it? You are contradicting yourself...

ah, what can I say... you are indeed right, Macs are 'special'... they use unique components found no where else in the world and each mac is individucally sprinkled with magical fairy dust and each is blessed by the hand of Jobs in person... :rolleyes:


"In Photography, as in all arts, the quality of the human imagination is the only thing that counts - technique, and technical proficiency, mean nothing in themselves." CLARENCE JOHN LAUGHLIN
www.hitmanh.com (external link)
40D and some luck

  
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Stocky
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May 30, 2008 04:48 |  #113

What computer you get should depend on what you want to use it for. I find my MacBook Pro to be perfect for my day to day use which includes web browsing, email, the whole MS office suite, cleaning horrible viruses off of thumb driives, and some image processing with Gimp.

If you want a good computer for games then Sony has an awesome one in the $500 range. They call it PS3 or something like that, and my bet is that it will be current for longer than most other computers on the market right now.


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Nick ­ Pro
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May 30, 2008 06:41 |  #114

I will be upgrading my macbook to a MBP indefinitely. I did have the top f the line macbook back in september of last year. 80 gb HD, 2gb of ram, and 1G of memory. For anyone that has upgraded, how much have you sold your macbook for?



  
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cory1848
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May 30, 2008 06:48 |  #115

hitmanh wrote in post #5623775 (external link)
ah, what can I say... you are indeed right, Macs are 'special'... they use unique components found no where else in the world and each mac is individucally sprinkled with magical fairy dust and each is blessed by the hand of Jobs in person... :rolleyes:

You are another person that is completely missing the point...But hey, at least you now see the light :razz:


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hitmanh
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May 30, 2008 07:54 |  #116

cory1848 wrote in post #5624073 (external link)
You are another person that is completely missing the point...But hey, at least you now see the light :razz:

hehe :D


"In Photography, as in all arts, the quality of the human imagination is the only thing that counts - technique, and technical proficiency, mean nothing in themselves." CLARENCE JOHN LAUGHLIN
www.hitmanh.com (external link)
40D and some luck

  
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flyingwolf
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May 30, 2008 11:12 |  #117

pro wrote in post #5624050 (external link)
I will be upgrading my macbook to a MBP indefinitely. I did have the top f the line macbook back in september of last year. 80 gb HD, 2gb of ram, and 1G of memory. For anyone that has upgraded, how much have you sold your macbook for?

The top of the line Macbook last year (8 month ago) was a machine with an 80 gig hard drive, and either two or one gig of RAM? (note RAM and memory are the same thing).

But to answer your question, hit ebay and see what they are going for, thats your best bet.


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Little box that holds light.

  
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jonstewart
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May 30, 2008 11:17 |  #118

hitmanh wrote in post #5617811 (external link)
Not really no, the MacPro use ECC ram, whcih has been a standard component in workstation and server class machines for a good while. It's a standard off the shelf component. I use them in a workstation I built at home and you can buy the stuff anywhere that sells pc components.

As I have stated earlier... Mac hardware isn't special. They do not have anything you cannot buy yourself and fit to your own PC.


Yes, I meant bog standard in the sense it's the same memory as you'd find in any computer, whereas the memory for MacPro is rather more highend, as you pointed out.
J




  
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freakeystyley34
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May 30, 2008 15:48 |  #119

I think the only reason to buy a mac is because you specifically want a mac, whther that's for osx or because they look pretty. The fact is, you always pay a premium for them over an equivalent pc.

You can get a macbook pro spec laptop for around £800 whereas the base macbook pro is £1300 ish.

They don't "just work" as apple claim either. I have a friend with a macbook pro who took it back to apple something like 4 times because of battery issues then eventually they gave her a free replacement (for an updated model with a dx10 gfx card, faster cpu etc) on her 5th time back. the new one gets ridiculously hot and has had several 'kernel panics' since she got it.

Not to say that most of them probably don't cause any problems, but then most pcs don't cause any problems if you have half a clue how to use them.

In terms of the mac pro, i just went on dells website and specced a dell poweredge pc and a mac pro to the same level and the mac was £2800 and the dell was £2200. There isn't really anything that a mac can do that a pc can't, so as i said before, the only reason to buy a mac is because you want one, not because they offer anything more.

That said the macbook pro is a pretty sexy machine!


Canon 30d, 17-55 2.8 IS, 85mm 1.8, 50mm 1.4, Contax 139 and Zeiss 50mm 1.7
(semi) realistic wish-list: 10-22, 580EX.
Unrealistic wish-list: 24L, 35L, 85L, 5dmk2 :D

  
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slava-slavik
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May 30, 2008 22:20 |  #120

Stocky wrote in post #5623796 (external link)
.. I find my MacBook Pro to be perfect for my day to day use which includes web browsing, email, the whole MS office suite, cleaning horrible viruses off of thumb driives, and some image processing with Gimp...

Stocky,
browsing, emails, MS Word, Excell, and Gimp is pretty basic stuff. What was the factor that you decided to spent $2k on a notebook for that? I think your productivity would not be affected with a $700 ACER or HP...


Slava Slavik, wedding and portrait photographer
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