Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Guest
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 20 May 2008 (Tuesday) 21:55
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

Another how to respond/follow up question

 
Aaagogo
Goldmember
Avatar
2,403 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Oct 2006
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
     
May 20, 2008 21:55 |  #1

Here's another one that I need you guys help in. because it's the 3rd visiting college that stopped replying since I send them my price.

Story summary,

I shoot sports at my college's sporting events, all personal equipment, knowledge learnt from senior members here.

I always leave a namecard with the coach, and i follow up with an email to the visiting college's SID, AD, head coach, informing them that I'd like to offer one image at no charge for their college's editorial use, as per USA Copyright Law, Fair Use Terms. I also inform them that I do license out my images for the college's use should there be a desire to obtain more than the single complimentary image that I provide.

I've had 2 SID's that replied, stating that the love the images and it looks amazing and they would like a CD of all their images. Their usage would be for media guide and other publication.

I replied with my charges, for a CD, I feel that it's a reasonable price.

I gave them a quote of 500 for basketball images, with 1 year unlimited prints and web usage, freedom to mask out images and replace background, because of media guides. Restrictions of use would be non distribution to parents and athletes. Only meant for college media guide and other college related publication use. I spend about 3 hrs physically at the games.

1 college did not response after they receive my initial offer, and 1 SID says that they were looking at 50 for the CD. I did not reply to that one.

The latest one, a 2 day baseball game, spanned about 7 hours, same thing, SID was very impressed with the images and wants a CD as well, I send him my quote again, about 150 images of his players, for 950, with the same rights as above. The replied was sent out last friday.

The parents of the visiting team bought a handful of images, but there's a lot of hits from their area, from what google analytics shows.

I'm thinking of following up tomorrow, but I've no idea how to approach it.

Any suggestions?


https://photography-on-the.net …p?p=4655753&pos​tcount=953 Your 1st 10,000 images are your worst
One photo out of focus is a mistake, ten photo out of focus are an experimentation, one hundred photo out of focus are a style

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
amfoto1
Cream of the Crop
10,331 posts
Likes: 146
Joined Aug 2007
Location: San Jose, California
     
May 21, 2008 12:08 |  #2

My 2 cents worth...

Have you considered what they might be able to do for you? Something of value, that would both further your business and give you a basis for discounting their use of some of your photos?

Photo credits are "nice", and something I'd request whenever and where ever they use your shots. But photo credits don't pay the bills.

The real meat & potatoes they might provide would be URL/links to your image galleries, on their website and in their print publications. That will help drive business your way and it costs them nothing, but is of high value to you.

This is sort of a subtle "endorsement", but don't call it that. They may have a policy against making endorsements.

When talking or writing to them, emphasize that it's a benefit, convenience and service for their students and parents (i.e., their "paying customers"), making it easier to find and freely browse the event photos. "No purchase necessary", viewing is free... but more traffic should translate into more sales.

I would not give them a CD of all the images, personally. Sure, it's easy and quick, but it gives up control over your images and their usage. Who knows if and when someone who is not knowledgeable about your agreement might get hold of it, copy it, use the images in some way you don't want, etc.

But, if you must, I would not make a statement about "restrictions of use would be non distribution to parents and athletes". That's both too narrow a restriction and sounds sort of obviously greedy.

Instead spell out in detail how they can use the images by granting them limited rights of usage "for school publications - printed and electronic, for school promotion and marketing".

Then include a limitation further down that reads something like: "All rights reserved. Photographer retains copyright of all images. School may not sell, extend or transfer the copyright of any images provided to third parties, with the sole exception of any vendors supplying printing and/or other publishing services to the school." It could actually be more generic than this. Look around for image licensing agreements and come up with one you can use.

Now, depending upon their usage and needs, I might deliver select images to them on CD or DVD, as needed. I wouldn't charge for it, either.

Imprint the CD/DVD with a brief copyright statement in fine print. Something like: "(C) Copyright 2008, xxxxx xxxxxx, photographer. All rights reserved, this disk and all its contents."

Write up and include a small txt document regarding copyright, to include on all CDs and DVDs. This file can reference URLs, provide your name, address, phone and email for contact, etc. In case you are unaware, virtually any computer can open a txt document.

Follow up each image (or small group of images) that they ask to use with a written image usage licensing agreement, signed by you and sent to them "for their files". This is professional and shows that you continue monitoring all use of your images and are working within the terms of your agreement with them. You should have a license form prepared for this purpose, and can find examples on the Internet and in various books about selling photography. In the blank on the form that normally would contain the compensation to the photographer that's been agreed upon, just write "complimentary, per agreement dated such and such". This is another chance to reiterate your terms of usage in a "form letter" and non-threatening way.

You might want to offer them free use of the images they find in your galleries online. I do this with most event organizers I work with, in exchange for their help promoting my images and giving me relative exclusivity and exceptional access. In return I get URLs, ads in programs, "official photographer" status, frequent PA announcements at events, the right to set up and display at events, etc.

After all, what's good for them is good for me. If their events are popular, well attended, and talked about a long time afterward, I can expect better print sales. I try to make them aware, too, that what's good for me is also good for them.

Try to make your negotiations more conversational and use less legalese. Think of it as forming a partnership, with the emphasis on the benefits to both sides, then protect yourself from abuses within the written agreement that you'll both eventually sign.

List the benefits they will receive up front and nice and bold in any conversation or correspondence. Just don't forget to eventually include the restrictions and protections for yourself in the finer print further down in the discussion or more deeply buried in the document.

In other words, put your emphasis on all the things you can do for them, not on the things you can't or won't permit and want to restrict. Just judging from what you've written above (which I realize might be an abbreviated overview of the negotiations), I'd be disinclined to hire you. It just sounds like you will be difficult to work with.

Oh, and use email to set up appointments for face-to-face meetings or let them know you have sent a letter, confirm a date, or to clarify minor points of discussion. Do not use email for negotiation. Don't get into major points with email. You need to be able to see and respond to their reactions. There's a lot of non-verbal and unwritten communication in negotiations. You can't observe these through email.

Just work out the major points in discussion. Don't overwhelm them with the fine details.

In the end, once you have arrived at mutually agreeable major terms, put it on paper for both parties to sign. This is where the fine points come in and are reviewed. If you are already 95% of the way toward agreement, they are more likely to go ahead and sign even though they don't like some fine point that's shown up in the document at the last minute.

If they do refuse to sign over something you thought was a fine point, you've just identified another important issue that needs discussion or clarification.

Be very careful about citing laws and such during negotiations. It sounds too restrictive and threatening.

Be sure the EXIF of each of your images contains copyright info. I suppose, if you wished, you could also add your licensing terms to that, when you send images to them on CD or as an ftp or email attachment.

There's a field in EXIF to refer to a URL for copyright info, which you might put on your own website. Or, you could simply refer to the US gov's URL regarding copyright.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII, 7D, M5 & others. 10-22mm, Meike 12/2.8,Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, EF-M 22/2, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Sigma 56/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS, 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Aaagogo
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
Avatar
2,403 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Oct 2006
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
     
May 21, 2008 12:49 |  #3

hey Alan, thanx for your detailed write up.

you made some interesting points there and I will definitely look into it.

Problem is, the visiting college is in TN, and no one knows when will be the next time I get to shoot them, my college is in a different regional group and our colleges met for like a super regionals championship leading up to the world series.

i understand that photo credits don't pay bill, also, they are up in TN and I'm in FL, so it's not like photo credits or link to my site will be of much use. Also, I don't think college's will help advertise for free for other business.

the CD of images is only for the school.

They problem I have is that, I feel, the SID's feel that my price is too high. I want to see what you guys think of contacting the SID again and ask him if he has any questions and inform him that some parents have bought some prints.

I want to come across as, I really really want to sell you the CD at a reasonable price, not 50 bucks or 100 bucks. after all, i did put in close to 7 hrs at the 2 day game, not including all of my personal equipment... etc. both parties stand to benefit from the transaction of images.


https://photography-on-the.net …p?p=4655753&pos​tcount=953 Your 1st 10,000 images are your worst
One photo out of focus is a mistake, ten photo out of focus are an experimentation, one hundred photo out of focus are a style

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
bildeb0rg
Goldmember
Avatar
3,880 posts
Gallery: 824 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 5024
Joined Oct 2006
Location: Perthshire in Scotland
     
May 21, 2008 15:48 |  #4

You'll come across this sort of thing a LOT.
There appears to be very little percieved value in pics taken at sporting events, unless you are specifically asked to cover the event. At least then you have the chance to let people know your charges before hand.
What I have found is the pics you shot of players will soar in value as soon as
1. They quit
2. They get injured
3. They age by around five years.
Thats when you can expect a real pick up in sales.
I've had athletes/parents ask for "everything you have" after their careers are over (broken leg) or they are off to college




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
MikeMcL
Goldmember
Avatar
1,411 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Jun 2006
Location: Dayton Ohio
     
May 22, 2008 09:17 |  #5

your 7 hours is worth nothing if you don't sell them that CD. Although i think that your prices are reasonable, I am not the buyer.

This is simple business and economics. If you want to sell, discount and negotiate until you are at a comfortable price point for both parties.

My advice is to somehow open communications with the decision maker and let him know that you are open to inputs and are willing to work out a deal. You may discover that he requires a $200 discount to do business, or that they have no money at all for this purpose.

In this area of photography, you need to put on your salesman hat, and guide them through the sale. you may not like this part of it, but this is the part that will earn you money. Why do you think that commission salespeople make a nice amount of earnings... because it is not easy. One could argue that photography is the easy part of this process, but until you are the last "man with camera" on the planet - you'll have to sell.

I think you have a good idea of what your work and time is worth, but you have to build value to the buyer. Unfortunately, sales takes practice. you can't just offer it and expect it to be bought. build rapport, build value, and sell your product.


350d, 5d, 28-70L, 70-200L, 430EX,
50 1.8, 85 1.8 - full alienbees studio set.

MikeMcLane.comexternal link

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Village_Idiot
GREATEST POTN MEMBER EVER
Avatar
3,695 posts
Likes: 18
Joined Jan 2007
Location: Durt Burg, WV
     
May 22, 2008 12:11 |  #6

Also, if you consider cutting your price, consider cutting the number of images on the disc. 500 for 100 images for the year is $5 each...that's cheap.


My village called. I was told that they missed me.

Speedotron users, untie!

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Aaagogo
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
Avatar
2,403 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Oct 2006
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
     
May 22, 2008 18:18 |  #7

Hey guys, thanx for your inputs,

I understand, 7hrs is worth nothing if I don't sell the CD, but, a very big but, I'd rather it be worth nothing than something cheap. I don't want to sell them a CD at a price that I don't deem worth the time I've spent at the game, let alone the cost of the other stuff.

I'll definitely keep your idea of a "discount" in mind, Mike, that is good.

I use to be a laptop sales person, with Apple and IBM, so I should know how to sell top end products :) guess I just have to dig deep.

Also, I like the idea of "pulling" the images out of my site, I know that people like to procrastinate when it comes to purchasing images.

I will try to write a follow up letter to the SID soon, I'll probably start off with reminding them that they still have 1 unclaimed free image.


https://photography-on-the.net …p?p=4655753&pos​tcount=953 Your 1st 10,000 images are your worst
One photo out of focus is a mistake, ten photo out of focus are an experimentation, one hundred photo out of focus are a style

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

1,231 views & 0 likes for this thread, 5 members have posted to it.
Another how to respond/follow up question
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Forums   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset   •  Home

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.58forum software
version 2.58 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member was a spammer, and banned as such!
2146 guests, 127 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15,144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.