Commercial Shoot Issues

Hi New Poster here....

I was shooting today for a salon /spa in Calgary, Canada - images they want for their website. My friend is doing the site, I'm taking the pics for her (limited to 72dpi), and I will get to have my company name on the shots shown on the spa website. We have a mutual agreement. Aside from this the owner wishes to have some of my full res images blown up to print which I will seperately charge full price for. Here are some issues:

(1) This is a commercial usage of my images, so model release/property release forms should be used for all people appearing, correct?

(2) Some of the clients art work is on display in the background of my images. Will this cause any artist copyright infringemnt if these are used for commerical use by the spa?

(3) When shooting commerically, I am assuming the images will need to be provided in some digital form (for example the website), but also they will want to use some of these for hundreds of brochures, pamphlets etc. Does this mean commercial shooting generally releases the copy right to them? Is that implied in some way?

(4) Would leaving the name of my photo company somewhere along the bottom of the sold images be improper?

Thanks for the help people - I love this forum!

1. Yes
2. Legally, I believe that is true, but there are some caveats.
3. No, copyright is rarely released. The client is granted rights to use the images by the photographer, and the photographer keeps the copyright.
4. Its rarely done with commercial work, but its between the client and photographer.

sfaust wrote in post #5572672
1. Yes
2. Legally, I believe that is true, but there are some caveats.
3. No, copyright is rarely released. The client is granted rights to use the images by the photographer, and the photographer keeps the copyright.
4. Its rarely done with commercial work, but its between the client and photographer.

Thanks for the feedback Stephen.

This is a special case for myself, and my web-designer friend. She has a loose "verbal contract" with the owner of the salon, and unfortunately the owner might assume ownership of images - with her near-finished website.

I am primarily a family portrait photographer, and was invited to help out on this project to expose me to some new commercial work - at least get my name referenced on the website - perhaps my logo on a few prints inside the salon etc....

(1) I don't want to change any parameters of "their" agreement relating to the website -- although it is a commercial endeavour, with no known limits on usage of contained imagery I "freely" produced. The spa bought a "package" deal from the website creator - I don't want to jeapordise or infuriate the spa client.

(2) Any images which will be printed - not associated with the website, I believe, fall under my juristiction, and should have some limitations on the spa's commercial usage of them - allowing me to setup a specific liscense of use...... But, I think its probably too late for that know.

(3) Commercial contracts. You must have very unique contracts for each clients needs? Do you have a standard contract?

Again, thanks.

Hi,

In addition to what Stephen has replied...

Tell your friend the website designer that a verbal contract is only worth the paper it's printed on. This tends to be even more true among friends than strangers. Probably is the death of many a friendship, in fact.

Personally, I could care less about photo credits. No one reads them, they are necessarily kept small and inconspicuous, and are very easily forgotten.... so are of little benefit "getting my name out". I'd much rather have a live link to my website, in case someone likes the photo so much that they want to see more.

You should write up separate but limited image licensing agreements for different uses of your shots. One could be written up for all the shots to be used on the website. Another can be written to cover one time, printed brochure usage. Etc.

If the web designer is who hired you, that's who you should deal with in most situations, unless they ask you to deal directly with their customer, the salon, or their customer asks questions of you. Even if you have separate conversations directly with the salon owner, keep the web designer in the loop by copying them on any and all correspondence, so everyone is operating with the same information. It's more than just a business courtesy.

No one else can sign away your copyright for you, so the web designer may have over-stepped in some promises made in the "package" deal. They should have consulted you first. You should sit down with them immediately and find out what was promised and do damage control right away. There might not be any problems. Or, there might be. Until you know what was promised, you don't have any idea how to proceed.

Xboxer wrote in post #5575198
(1) I don't want to change any parameters of "their" agreement relating to the website -- although it is a commercial endeavour, with no known limits on usage of contained imagery I "freely" produced. The spa bought a "package" deal from the website creator - I don't want to jeapordise or infuriate the spa client.

That burden shouldn't fall on you. If the web designer promised a client a Bentley at a real cheap price, its up to them to find and deliver it and eat the costs if they can't deliver as promised. They shouldn't go to the Bentley dealers asking them to cut their price to fix her problem. She owns it, not you, so you should keep that in mind when negotiating.

Xboxer wrote in post #5575198
(2) Any images which will be printed - not associated with the website, I believe, fall under my juristiction, and should have some limitations on the spa's commercial usage of them - allowing me to setup a specific liscense of use...... But, I think its probably too late for that know.

It's only too late if you already relinquished on that issue. If you haven't, you still have every right to tell the web designer she was in error giving all the rights away, as thats very unusual in commercial photography. Then work with her to find a solution that is agreeable to all concerned. But there is no reason why you should have to cave to their agreement, when you were never part of the negotiation.

If she doesn't get the point, tell her you just negotiated a price and signed a purchase and sale for her on a new house, and let her know she'll need to add the new payments to her budget

Xboxer wrote in post #5575198
(3) Commercial contracts. You must have very unique contracts for each clients needs? Do you have a standard contract?

Basically, yes. I have about 15 templates I use for common stuff, but even those get edited and customized as needed. I have a notes file of 'contract language' that I can cut and paste from so I cover all the important points on each project, and can dump what doesn't apply.

Typically, I can usually take one of the templates with the basics for all jobs of that type, I cut/paste the appropriate template for the usage. I have one for editorial, national advertising, regional advertising, corporate marketing, publicity, product catalogs, etc. I then edit any changes to the usage, estimate terms, and job description, and its pretty much done.

On the more complex end for example, I just finished reviewing a contract for a client I will be shooting in the next two weeks. I did the above, made some substantial changes since its a celebrity shoot regarding usage and terms, then submitted it to client. Their marketing and PR departments made the first pass with me and we made a few changes. Then they sent it to their legal department, where they added a few changes to the project kill terms, usage rights, re-shoot terms, added a section on client privacy and a NDA agreement. I need to send that through my lawyer to make sure they didn't circumvent any of my terms either by accidental language, or perhaps even on purpose.

So yea, you really need to be flexible with contracts, as one size doesn't fit all.

Also, good points to bring up amfoto1.

It looks like I need to hire a legal team....

When you began, did you "come up" with your first commercial contracts yourself or did you purchase "legal" examples, and modify those?

Also, do you handle, or offer to handle the actual commercial printing of brochures, pamphlets?

Or, does the contract for you end with a transfer of a hi-res digital image into the clients possession?

Do you ever follow-up on their usage of your images to see whether they have gone beyond their contract specified time or agreed-to display media/circulation #'s etc??

Again, thanks for the advice.

Xboxer wrote in post #5582001
It looks like I need to hire a legal team....

Fortunately, if you start with a good template, read it, understand it, and occasionally ask for help when you need it, you can do most of it yourself. But you really need to take the time to understand what the contracts and terms are before you can do any adding or deleting.

Xboxer wrote in post #5582001
When you began, did you "come up" with your first commercial contracts yourself or did you purchase "legal" examples, and modify those?

I grabbed an existing contract from somewhere (ASMP, APA, or), and modified it to fit. I also wrote up some other clauses that I felt were appropriate, and then had a lawyer go over all of it. That gave me a good basis to use for cutting and pasting as needed. As time progressed, I added more. Anytime a contract required some new language, I would save the results for future contracts if needed.

Xboxer wrote in post #5582001
Also, do you handle, or offer to handle the actual commercial printing of brochures, pamphlets?

I'm not a printer, so I'd rather not get into that business. I find its best to concentrate on your core business, and use outside vendors for anything else. So I refer people to local printers when needed, but most already have a printer they use.

Xboxer wrote in post #5582001
Or, does the contract for you end with a transfer of a hi-res digital image into the clients possession?

Yes, everything I do ends with the clients getting hi-resolution images. They then use them for any purpose they are authorized by the license. On many shoots, I give them all the images, and they can select any of them for use if they use it within the terms of the license.

Xboxer wrote in post #5582001
Do you ever follow-up on their usage of your images to see whether they have gone beyond their contract specified time or agreed-to display media/circulation #'s etc??

Yes. And the software I use for bidding has a way to track licenses, with a reminder when a license term ends. I use the calendar/reminders to go ping my clients every now and then and check on the usage.

But more often than not, depending on the type of client and images, they stop using the images before the end of the license. Ie, with product photography, they may change the design of the product, and then re-shoot it to capture new images. My typical license for corporate products are 5 years. Most products look very different after 5 years, and new images replace the old.

Again, thanks for the extensive reply. I have had some conversations already now with the designer today relating my concerns....

Now onto another Issue.

(1) This store owner wants to have product shots of her supplies on the website ie) hair/nail spa related products her supplier gets her - is this allowed ? I mean, she does actually sell these products....


Thanks.

Xboxer wrote in post #5584059
Again, thanks for the extensive reply. I have had some conversations already now with the designer today relating my concerns....

Now onto another Issue.

(1) This store owner wants to have product shots of her supplies on the website ie) hair/nail spa related products her supplier gets her - is this allowed ? I mean, she does actually sell these products....


Thanks.

If she is a licensed dealer of the products, in all likelihood she should be able to do so.

However, some companies do try to keep tight control over how their products are depicted and marketed, and any locally developed ads need approval. So she may need to check with the manufacturer or look in her dealer agreement with them for details. Also, many manufacturers provide an advertising kit to their dealers, including guidelines, contacts and perhaps some "canned" ads, ad copy and artwork.

Keep us posted how the issues with the designer get resolved.