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Thread started 23 May 2008 (Friday) 01:54
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Am I charging too much, or too little?

 
ben805
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May 23, 2008 01:54 |  #1

I just finished the preschool graduation session last week and going to get the proof and price list for their parents in a day or two. No sitting fees involved, entire session took me two hours from start to finish, the group shots were a challenge for sure, very hard to get all of them to look at the camera at the same time, luckily the principle and two teachers were helping me to keep these kids in place. LOL Took about 450 shots total and I picked the best 54 out of the bunch. 14 kids total, each one has anywhere from 5 to 9 different poses. Profit wise it will only come from prints I sell, this private preschool is charing 30% kickback fees from whatever I sell as part of their annual fund raising, with that in mind, here is the current price structure I came up with:


(All from one pose)

Package Bronze: $25.00
2 - 5x7”
2 - 4x6”

Package Silver: $42.00
2 - 5x7”
4 - 4x6”
8 - 2.5x3.5” Wallets

Package Gold: $55.00
1 - 8x10”
2 - 5x7”
4 - 4x6”
8 - 2.5x3.5” Wallets

Package Platinum: $83.00
2 - 8x10”
2 - 5x7”
4 - 4x6”
16 - 2.5x3.5” Wallets

Package A: $21.00
1 - 8x10”

Package B: $19.00
8 - 2.5x3.5” Wallets

Package C: $7.00
1 - 4x6”

Package D: $10.00
1 - 5x7”

Package E: $25.00
3 - 3” Buttons

Package F: $40.00
1 - 8x12” Puzzles (50 pieces)

Package G: $40.00
50 - 2x3.5” Stickers[/FONT]


Here's a few samples of my work:
http://www.pbase.com/y​auyi/graduation (external link)


So my question is, base on the quality of my work do you think I'm charging too much, or too little?

I do realize there is not much profit to speak of, I'm doing this mostly as a favor to my wife (she's one of the teacher at this private preschool) but in the mean time i do not want to sell myself short. by the way....I get all my prints from WHCC and MPIX.


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tim
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May 23, 2008 08:06 |  #2

FAR too cheap. Why would you want to sell a single 6x4 or 5x7? It's not worth the overhead of the sorting and admin, plus customer contact and delivery. I personally have a minimum order of $50 for weddings. For portraits a single 6x4 print starts at $50, and the minimum order is in the hundreds of dollars. The only time i've done things at prices like you do is for charity, I made no profit whatsoever, which is about how much you'll make.


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eigga
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May 23, 2008 08:37 |  #3

WAY to many packages. Stick with the bronze -> platinum packages. Instead of having the single print packages make those a-la-cart items they can add to the other packages but not buy alone. Also maybe a package that includes one print from every pose. This is why I like doing my orders online, parents do all the picking and the more they spend the more poses they get.


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cjcastan
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May 23, 2008 08:58 |  #4

Are these pre-paid or are parents choosing after the fact?

- I would get rid of 4x6's and replace them with them with 3Rs. Always best to purchase a whole 7x10 or 8x10 unit than single prints.

- I would say your pricing depends on the market you're in. I was at an SPAA seminar given by some of the leaders in sports photography. I was shocked to hear that sometimes they were charging as little as $5 for a digital memory mate. But they were ones making all the money.

- Or see if you could make the kickback back in different ways (selected digital files, donated prints, or make them some cute posters etc to decorate the school with) whatever is less than 30%.

- 30% fundraising is pretty stiff, if you want to do it again I would negiotiate it down or not do it. Sounds like they didn't have anyone do it before so they would be hard-pressed to find someone to do it under those circumstances. If you provide good service and product they might not mind making some concessions.

@Tim - the school and sports market is a completely different animal from weddings. It depends on volume and pre-buying on the part of parents. So prices have to be adjusted accordingly. The market might be different in NZ but there are plenty of businesses in the US that make a larger margin %wise and total dollar wise at lower prices than what OP charges because they make it in volume (number of events and # of prints sold).


Christopher Castaneda
www.allure-photo.com (external link)
2 x 5D l Canon 17-40 4L l Canon 24-70 2.8L l Canon 70-200 2.8L IS l Canon 50 1.4 l Canon 100mm 2.8L IS Macro

  
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HaroldC3
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May 23, 2008 09:50 |  #5

Maybe promote the fact that 30% of the proceeds are going back to the school. You don't have to say that's what they are charging you.


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ben805
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May 23, 2008 11:15 |  #6

Well, I don't think the parents really care about portion of the price retain for school fundraising so if the price is higher than that you don't think it's going to scare them away? :D

Those are not prepaid, each parents get somewhere between 5 to 9 proofs with order forms included in the envelope, 1 order form for each pose. I set a deadline on next friday so if they they decided to order later then they would have to pay $30 as penalty and special handling fees. Once I get all the proofs back i will be placing the order all at once, that's why I don't mind having single print in separate package just incase the parents wanted them.

the school wont' negotiate the 30% kickback fees, this is what they have been charging in the past few years and I saw quite a few local studio willing to line up for their business.


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cjcastan
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May 23, 2008 11:38 |  #7

Hmmm, on the kickback subject. One school photographer I met at PMA worked it like this. Instead of a percentage he offered the school a certain dollar amount per child photographed. School liked that better since they knoew how many kids they had. It's not like you're opening up all your books to the school as well. So the kickback is a set number everyone can easily figure out.

If you could find out how much the school is looking to make dollar wise. You could just figure out your buyrate and volume, figure out your expenses and profit, and add that kickback amount into your packages.

Promoting it as a school fundraiser (never disclose the amount) is a good idea.


Christopher Castaneda
www.allure-photo.com (external link)
2 x 5D l Canon 17-40 4L l Canon 24-70 2.8L l Canon 70-200 2.8L IS l Canon 50 1.4 l Canon 100mm 2.8L IS Macro

  
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tim
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May 23, 2008 18:10 |  #8

You send out printed proofs to all the parents? And you're charging this? Have you run the numbers? Are you actually going to make any money at all?


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form
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May 23, 2008 18:43 |  #9

Your colors are virtually perfect as far as neutrality, and that looks great. The photos are clean. I've personally never charged as much as you're charging for any prints, but I almost never sell prints anyway. I agree that single-print options are not worth your time and effort.

I don't see why, unless it was stated in your agreement, that you shouldn't publicize the fact that 30% of the proceeds are going to the school; it's better for business when people know your income is contributing to a charity of some sort.

Sounds like these people who talk about expensive packages know better than I do about how to run a portrait business. I don't get very many portrait jobs en general anyway, and none of them buy prints.


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ben805
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May 23, 2008 22:30 |  #10

tim wrote in post #5584654 (external link)
You send out printed proofs to all the parents? And you're charging this? Have you run the numbers? Are you actually going to make any money at all?


yes i have run the numbers, the proofs are not available for purchase and they will be charge $5.00 for each unreturned proof. i'm not sure how many prints these parents would buy but the more the better. :D

form wrote in post #5584809 (external link)
Your colors are virtually perfect as far as neutrality, and that looks great. The photos are clean. I've personally never charged as much as you're charging for any prints, but I almost never sell prints anyway. I agree that single-print options are not worth your time and effort.

I don't see why, unless it was stated in your agreement, that you shouldn't publicize the fact that 30% of the proceeds are going to the school; it's better for business when people know your income is contributing to a charity of some sort.

Sounds like these people who talk about expensive packages know better than I do about how to run a portrait business. I don't get very many portrait jobs en general anyway, and none of them buy prints.


I use 4x6 proof from WHCC, only .27 each and I'd ordered 100 of them. I think it's well worth the investment instead of giving out proof in tiny little wallet size that you can't really see or judge the quality of the portraits.


In the order instruction I gave them, i stated that a portion of the purchase price is retained by the school as part of their annual fundraising so the parents should be aware of this. :)


5D Mark III, Samyang 14mm, 35LII, 85L II, 100L IS Macro, 24-105L, 70-200L 2.8 IS II. 580EX, AB400, AB800.

  
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Shooting
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May 23, 2008 22:37 as a reply to  @ ben805's post |  #11

Yes..all those packages are too many for them to keep track of and choose. I don't do packages because they always want to purchase something that is not there. I shoot and then they buy each size they want. a la carte' as they say..that way they purchase exactly what they want and in the quantities they want. I put all the shots on my web site and then they purchase the prints they want.




  
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Citizensmith
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May 23, 2008 22:40 |  #12

The company that do my kids school have some cheap packages. They shoot three pictures per kid in a single pose. You see all three in various styles on a heavily watermarked 8x10. There is then a choice of packages from 2 5x7 for $14 up to a huge pack including 'trading cards', wallet photos, 8x10s and the like for $70.

I don't know what the kick back to the school is, but it would influence the amount of money I spend upwards to know a decent chunk went to the school.

With 2 school photos and 1 soccer photo a year, plus the fact I do sometimes take to occasional photo myself (OK, a few thousand a year) I wouldn't really spend more than $20 at any given time. If they didn't have the cheap package I'd just pass, clean the kids up, take them to the park, and then grab the prints from Costco.


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tim
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May 24, 2008 05:36 |  #13

Citizensmith wrote in post #5585973 (external link)
The company that do my kids school have some cheap packages. They shoot three pictures per kid in a single pose. You see all three in various styles on a heavily watermarked 8x10. There is then a choice of packages from 2 5x7 for $14 up to a huge pack including 'trading cards', wallet photos, 8x10s and the like for $70.

I don't know what the kick back to the school is, but it would influence the amount of money I spend upwards to know a decent chunk went to the school.

With 2 school photos and 1 soccer photo a year, plus the fact I do sometimes take to occasional photo myself (OK, a few thousand a year) I wouldn't really spend more than $20 at any given time. If they didn't have the cheap package I'd just pass, clean the kids up, take them to the park, and then grab the prints from Costco.

This is why school photography isn't something i'd bother pursuing myself - too much work for too little gain.


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eigga
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May 24, 2008 07:13 |  #14

Once I get all the proofs back i will be placing the order all at once, that's why I don't mind having single print in separate package just incase the parents wanted them.

Selling individual prints is not a cost issue. Its a time issue. Have you ever sorted thousands of images from mpix into separate orders? I did for a while and it sucks and I make mistakes which cost me $$. I have them directly delivered with Mpix or use Millers individual packaging offer (10%)- also going to try Millers web hosting soon (10%) . I prefer the Mpix option... the shipping is $4.95, I charge $3.95 and cover the $1. I have about one out of a 1000 complain about shipping. It takes me about 30-90 seconds to fill an order with ROES and once I push send I am done! JMO


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tim
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May 24, 2008 07:31 |  #15

eigga wrote in post #5587150 (external link)
Selling individual prints is not a cost issue. Its a time issue. Have you ever sorted thousands of images from mpix into separate orders? I did for a while and it sucks and I make mistakes which cost me $$. I have them directly delivered with Mpix or use Millers individual packaging offer (10%)- also going to try Millers web hosting soon (10%) . I prefer the Mpix option... the shipping is $4.95, I charge $3.95 and cover the $1. I have about one out of a 1000 complain about shipping. It takes me about 30-90 seconds to fill an order with ROES and once I push send I am done! JMO

Why would you cover part of the shipping cost? I charge significantly more than that for packaging, shipping and handling of prints.


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Am I charging too much, or too little?
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