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Thread started 31 May 2008 (Saturday) 05:57
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ND filter, help!

 
St1ll
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May 31, 2008 05:57 |  #1

Hi guys, I need your help;
my aim is to shoot at least at 10sec at 1pm with sunlight :) So i guess i'll need a ND filter; but I even think that a 3stop nd (hoya 8x) won't be enough.
So here's the question:
how many stops can I go down with a polarizer (i have the hoya pro 1) and a 3 stop nd filter? 5 stops? More? Will 5 stops be enough?
What about putting two ND 8x and a polarizer?
I'm on budget, so i'd prefer to buy just one nd filter, since they're quite expensive!
Thank you!

Ps= In italy nd filters are so damn' hard to be found!


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yankees3791
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May 31, 2008 06:15 |  #2

how about just getting a 6 stop ND?


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St1ll
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May 31, 2008 06:26 |  #3

I haven't found it...and i think it's too expensive; do you mean the b+w?
Anyway, do you know if it's correct to add the stop compensation of the cpl and the nd?


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Jon
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May 31, 2008 07:02 |  #4

Yes, it is correct. That combo would be around 5 stops. You need about 9-10 stops, I'm afraid. You might want to look for gelatin filters and a gel (or other square) filter as a less-expensive (but less durable) alternative. Another possibility might be stacking your CP with a linear polarizer. The sequence then would be linear polarizer, CP, then lens. Adjusting one of the filters would cut light significantly; this is more or less what Singh-Ray's variable ND (2-10 stops) does.


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argyle
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May 31, 2008 07:16 as a reply to  @ St1ll's post |  #5

If you have a "good" polarizer, its perfectly fine to stack it with a good, high-quality ND filter. About your only problem would be possible vignetting from stacking the filters, and how much vignetting you get will depend on your focal length.

I doubt that a 3-stop ND by itself would be enough under those conditions (1pm on a bright sunny day). I assume you're thinking about waterfall shots or something similar, such as smoothing out water? For example, let's assume the following: your camera meter reads f/11 at 1/500 sec, and you're set to ISO 100. A 3-stop ND will slow the shutter speed down to about 1/60 sec...not enough to blur water or smooth the surface. Adding in a polarizer can give you up to another two stops of light reduction...this would bring it down to about 1/15 sec. You'd need to get down to about 1/15 sec at the bare minimum, preferably down to about 1/5 sec where you'll see the silky effects on the water. You can go to a smaller aperture, but then you'd need to consider lens diffraction coming into play. But a lot depends on the conditions at the time. If your meter was reading f/8 instead of f/11, you'd have an extra stop or two of reduction available, which would work for you. Like someone else has suggested, a 6-stop ND filter would be your best choice.

Not sure what size filter you're looking for, but here's a link to a B+W 6-stop filter:

http://hvstar.net …Action=VIEWPROD​&ProdID=54 (external link)

EDIT: Sorry...just noticed the "10 second" shutter speed in the original post. You can use my example to calculate how many stops you'd need to get down to 10 seconds, but definitely, 6-stops will be nowhere enough under your conditions. You'd need an ND filter somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-stops, plus the polarizer.


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keegsmeister
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May 31, 2008 07:31 |  #6

argyle wrote in post #5630028 (external link)
If you have a "good" polarizer, its perfectly fine to stack it with a good, high-quality ND filter. About your only problem would be possible vignetting from stacking the filters, and how much vignetting you get will depend on your focal length.

I doubt that a 3-stop ND by itself would be enough under those conditions (1pm on a bright sunny day). I assume you're thinking about waterfall shots or something similar, such as smoothing out water? For example, let's assume the following: your camera meter reads f/11 at 1/500 sec, and you're set to ISO 100. A 3-stop ND will slow the shutter speed down to about 1/60 sec...not enough to blur water or smooth the surface. Adding in a polarizer can give you up to another two stops of light reduction...this would bring it down to about 1/15 sec. You'd need to get down to about 1/15 sec at the bare minimum, preferably down to about 1/5 sec where you'll see the silky effects on the water. You can go to a smaller aperture, but then you'd need to consider lens diffraction coming into play. But a lot depends on the conditions at the time. If your meter was reading f/8 instead of f/11, you'd have an extra stop or two of reduction available, which would work for you. Like someone else has suggested, a 6-stop ND filter would be your best choice.

Not sure what size filter you're looking for, but here's a link to a B+W 6-stop filter:

http://hvstar.net …Action=VIEWPROD​&ProdID=54 (external link)

EDIT: Sorry...just noticed the "10 second" shutter speed in the original post. You can use my example to calculate how many stops you'd need to get down to 10 seconds, but definitely, 6-stops will be nowhere enough under your conditions. You'd need an ND filter somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-stops, plus the polarizer.

Excellent advise.

Could you explain to me more about lens diffraction? I'm not sure what you mean by that. I was using my 350D with a Sigma 10-20mm EX HSM @ 10mm for a trip to Singapore, and wanted to take a shot of a moving train but didn't have any ND filters, so i jacked up the f-stop to f/22...

IMAGE: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2393/2284830495_3996225f56.jpg?v=0

worked a charm.

So what does lens diffraction do?

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Jon
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May 31, 2008 07:40 |  #7

Diffraction -
Basically, light passing across a knife edge (like your lens diaphragm) is bent or "diffracted". At large apertures, the number of rays that are diffracted is negligible relative to the undiffracted rays passing through the lens. At small apertures, there is much less undiffracted light, and the diffracted light has more effect.


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argyle
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May 31, 2008 07:42 |  #8

keegsmeister wrote in post #5630089 (external link)
Excellent advise.

Could you explain to me more about lens diffraction? I'm not sure what you mean by that. I was using my 350D with a Sigma 10-20mm EX HSM @ 10mm for a trip to Singapore, and wanted to take a shot of a moving train but didn't have any ND filters, so i jacked up the f-stop to f/22...

QUOTED IMAGE

worked a charm.

So what does lens diffraction do?

This link can explain it better than I can, other than saying that your images will have an "unsharp" look to them and appear out of focus. On crop cameras, you'll generally start to see the effects at f/16 and smaller. Some can be fixed in PP, so if you need to get the shot, then by all means take it and fix it later. But there is a limit as too how much can be corrected in PP, however. Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com …eries/u-diffraction.shtml (external link)


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keegsmeister
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May 31, 2008 08:45 |  #9

Ah I see, makes sense. :D Thanks again.


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GSansoucie
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May 31, 2008 22:59 |  #10

Did you look at the B+W 1.8?

I have the Hoya .9, B+W 1.8, & B+W 3.0. I use the 3.0 a lot for mid-day long exposure shots (30 seconds). The 1.8 would get you there and you'd still be able to use AF.


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kobe629
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Jun 01, 2008 00:32 |  #11

The 3 stop ND and the CPL won't cut it. The CPL is 1 1/2 stop so it will help a little but I would use any of the following below. If it is as bright here in LA where it is always summer then you will need at least a 8 stop @ 1:00pm..

I would purchase a hoya nd400
http://www.amazon.com …ulti-Coated/dp/B0002XU6IG (external link)

or

Singh-ray varbile density filter from 2 stops to 8 stops all with one filter.
http://www.singh-ray.com/varind.html (external link)

and

I know B+W makes a 10 stop too.


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St1ll
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Jun 01, 2008 04:51 |  #12

I can't find the nd 400 or the 3.0 b+w. And I can't afford them! (I've seen the prices..)
What about two nd8x and a polarizer?
Btw the filter has to be 67mm..it's for my tamron 17-50


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kobe629
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Jun 02, 2008 00:35 |  #13

St1ll wrote in post #5635149 (external link)
I can't find the nd 400 or the 3.0 b+w. And I can't afford them! (I've seen the prices..)
What about two nd8x and a polarizer?
Btw the filter has to be 67mm..it's for my tamron 17-50


How about here:

http://www.adorama.com​/HY67ND400.html (external link)
http://www.bhphotovide​o.com …7_mm_Neutral_De​nsity.html (external link)
http://cgi.ebay.com.sg …ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcm​dZViewItem (external link)


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St1ll
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Jun 02, 2008 03:55 |  #14

Last link is interesting...but do I have to pay taxes?


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St1ll
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Jun 03, 2008 14:36 |  #15

Ok guys, it's impossible to found a filter darker than the 8x in Italy.
And if I buy it outside the EU i'm gonna pay lots of damn' taxes.

So what I need is a EU vendor (ebay or site) that sells the hoya ND 400 or the b+w 3.0. I'm gonna pay more for delivery (10-15 euros), but I won't pay crazy taxes.
Any ideas?
It can be Spanish, German, English or whatever, but NOT american or chinese!

Thanks!


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