Pictures for motorsports teams

Hi folks,

Being fairly new to the motorsports photography and having only shot for a total of one season I wanted to seek some advice from others on these forums. I've become fairly active in some touring car racing in the region which is mainly small grassroots style racing and am starting to build a relationship with a few of the teams and get to know the drivers better. Most of the teams and drivers are trying to obtain sponsorship and make their way up into the bigger leagues of motorsports driving so when a few asked me for 1 or 2 shots of the cars for their team and to give to a sponsor I said sure (one team just liked a shot and wanted it for their own personal reason and the other wanted it to show a potential sponsor which would be one of their first). My main question is, am I doing harm to other professional 'togs by not charging and focusing on building a relationship with the drivers and teams? Most 'togs at the events are people like me who are motorsports enthusiasts out to enjoy the event and watch up-and-coming drivers push their cars to the limits.

-s

In the long run you may be harming yourself in all honesty. If you give your stuff away they expect it for free for the rest of there life. I've been down that road before giving away some prints in the past to low minor league players just as a fan. About two weeks ago shooting a major league game one of them wanted a print of a pic I did about 9 years ago - of course he expected it for free. This guy makes 10x more than me a year (literally) and wanted a freebie...you should charge for your work. If you want to help them out give them a good price, they're in a business and will understand - and if they don't then I really don't think a relationship would have been built in the long run anyways.

smcclelland wrote in post #5654249
Hi folks,

Being fairly new to the motorsports photography and having only shot for a total of one season I wanted to seek some advice from others on these forums. I've become fairly active in some touring car racing in the region which is mainly small grassroots style racing and am starting to build a relationship with a few of the teams and get to know the drivers better. Most of the teams and drivers are trying to obtain sponsorship and make their way up into the bigger leagues of motorsports driving so when a few asked me for 1 or 2 shots of the cars for their team and to give to a sponsor I said sure (one team just liked a shot and wanted it for their own personal reason and the other wanted it to show a potential sponsor which would be one of their first). My main question is, am I doing harm to other professional 'togs by not charging and focusing on building a relationship with the drivers and teams? Most 'togs at the events are people like me who are motorsports enthusiasts out to enjoy the event and watch up-and-coming drivers push their cars to the limits.

-s

Shawn:

My background is working in racing; as in working for a team. So I can tell you first hand exactly how much money you'd need to go do a season of racing.

Nothing short of 6 digits would do if you're running touring cars, I don't care if it's CTCC which some views as grassroot. Do you seriously think those guys can't afford it? They're using your pictures to GET money. Heck if I was in your shoes, I'd better see a cut of that money.

Either that or they can take their own damn photos. I don't know about you, but I had to pay for my gear. I also had to pay for the gas that I needed to get to the events, and my TIME is also worth money. One of the drivers actually asked if he could get a free high res of his car on CD. I jokingly told him I'll give it to him, if I get to have my way with his race car around Mosport for one day

The earlier you establish the fact that you don't work for free, the easier it'll be for you down the line. Just think about it for a second. It's always easier to go from charging X amount to charging slightly less than X amount instead of going from FREE to charging whatever amount.

People always want free stuff; but they also get USED to not paying for stuff. As soon as they have to fork over money instead of getting it for free, they'll bail. If you tell them how much you usually charge but sweeten the pot with a 5 to 10% discount because you "know" them, they're happier.

Have a read at this:

http://www.sportsshoot​er.com/news/1989


I've only seriously started doing this since March, but from the beginning I've already established that I don't shoot for free. It's free for one person: ME. If they like it enough to ask for it, then please have the decency to be willing to pay for something that they like.

If you want to help out the team and give them a picture then by all means do so. By posting here everyone is going to tell you that you should be paid for it, but if you ask for money do so because you want, or need the money. If you are just having a good time and taking some pictures then you are free to give them out; just don't get upset if you realize how much the pictures were worth to them farther down the line. Its not your job to make sure that other people have a sound business plan.

Borbor wrote in post #5655877
Shawn:

My background is working in racing; as in working for a team. So I can tell you first hand exactly how much money you'd need to go do a season of racing.

Nothing short of 6 digits would do if you're running touring cars, I don't care if it's CTCC which some views as grassroot. Do you seriously think those guys can't afford it? They're using your pictures to GET money. Heck if I was in your shoes, I'd better see a cut of that money.

Either that or they can take their own damn photos. I don't know about you, but I had to pay for my gear. I also had to pay for the gas that I needed to get to the events, and my TIME is also worth money. One of the drivers actually asked if he could get a free high res of his car on CD. I jokingly told him I'll give it to him, if I get to have my way with his race car around Mosport for one day

The earlier you establish the fact that you don't work for free, the easier it'll be for you down the line. Just think about it for a second. It's always easier to go from charging X amount to charging slightly less than X amount instead of going from FREE to charging whatever amount.

People always want free stuff; but they also get USED to not paying for stuff. As soon as they have to fork over money instead of getting it for free, they'll bail. If you tell them how much you usually charge but sweeten the pot with a 5 to 10% discount because you "know" them, they're happier.

Have a read at this:

http://www.sportsshoot​er.com/news/1989


I've only seriously started doing this since March, but from the beginning I've already established that I don't shoot for free. It's free for one person: ME. If they like it enough to ask for it, then please have the decency to be willing to pay for something that they like.

Believe me I know the costs are up there in racing, I only ever graced the realm of Solo 1 and Solo 2 in my racing days and it ain't cheap.

The biggest thing for me was to start building a portfolio this year and a reputation, I'm by all means no John Thawley here looking to push my photos out to major publications because I know I need to work on my skillset more. Haha, nice try swinging the team into a test drive I just asked for credit, some track access when possible and one team offered some help/advice/parts info for getting my GTI back into operating shape for lapping days so I guess in all it's not a wash.

That's a pretty good article and something that I definitely agree with, I've worked in the games/film industry for almost 6 years now and I've seen people do work for free or companies farm out work to outsourcers doing it for 1/2 the cost or more.

Stocky: Well put. I'd certainly not get upset if the team told me the picture landed them a big time sponsorship deal, at that point yeah I would certainly look at it from the standpoint of ok now we need to work out some sort of compensation.

The big thing for me is building these relationships and building my portfolio, right now I don't think that many of my images are of the caliber to charge actual money for but I'm working on that.

Cheers to both of you for the responses, Borbor you going to be at the Mosport event next weekend?

I'm not

Going away for a while to take care of some family affairs. Bums me out to no end that I'm missing the race on father's day weekend (I was supposed to be working that weekend) AND the Can-Am weekend too

I'm wondering where the notion that free stuff can't hurt other photographers came from. There had to be some debate on order for it to be a question. Its obvious to me that is does. But as explained it also hurts you. And the notion that you either charge OR build relations is another fallacy. You build relations with your professionalism and personality, not by giving stuff away. It is possable to build strong relations while over charging. But enough of this...... if you want your work to get out, at the minimun sell them at cost. You dont have to tell them it is at cost.... or even that you are new. Tell them its because they are new to the track ( only if they are) or some other reason that can run out. (your not new at the track on your 5th visit)

Racing is big money....coming and going. I used to work for R.C. Sherman The '89 champ in IHRA Funny Cars. And beleive me less than 1/4 of the teams "value" (for the lack of a better word) goes to the track.

smcclelland wrote in post #5656901
The big thing for me is building these relationships and building my portfolio, right now I don't think that many of my images are of the caliber to charge actual money for but I'm working on that.

If this is the case I may not let them see the pics you shot. You may be doing your self harm here. Your reputation may grow as the fan who cant shoot. But then there you are asking for money.....just a thought.

smcclelland wrote in post #5656901
The big thing for me is building these relationships and building my portfolio, right now I don't think that many of my images are of the caliber to charge actual money for but I'm working on that.

That's what I'm doing as well to tell you the truth. Having said that, I don't give stuff out for free because it doesn't help anyone. It obviously doesn't help me, and it doesn't help the other photographers. It doesn't help the team, because they won't value my stuff. (Hell, we got it for free anyway, there'll be tons more as soon as he keeps shooting pictures)

If you're getting interest from your pictures, it's of the caliber to charge money for that actual picture. That's all there is to it.

I understand it's a whole different ball game to be working for a team and shoot 50-80 money shots out of the entire race weekend tho

Mark1: I'm not sure where the notion came about ever doing anything for free but coming up through the design/illustration world and into the 3D industry I know what it's like trying to build a portfolio for any artistic endeavour which is probably where the "starving artist" term comes from

I'm a perfectionist in every aspect of my work, I've sat and analyzed 4k images for IMAX films and scrutinized over pixels that no viewer would ever see in the theatre but because I want to assure I do the best work possible I go that extra mile. I think I take good pictures, do I take great pictures? Possibly but that's up to the viewer to decide and I'm not about to rush off to Inside Track or other magazines and tote my stuff around like it's publishing worthy. I've obviously triggered some interest in the teams from my photos and with that comes the decision to shift from a hobbyist and start building a solid gameplan to make this into a part-time job on the side. I appreciate the advice all around.

The free notion came from your OP.

smcclelland wrote in post #5654249
My main question is, am I doing harm to other professional 'togs by not charging...

The "starving artist" came from artists that CAN'T sell their stuff. Not from artists giving it out.

As far as your work, I have not seen any, but....If it is good enough to get interest its good enough to sell!

Right and there was some give and take from the teams in allowing access and other bits, while it wasn't full compensation of monetary value it was something.

There's always fine lines with giving out of things, I got my first gig in CG by doing a lot of freebie work for other artists by providing my skillset to their skillset and working together which wound up being a collaborative film effort. I made nothing off that effort at all and it took a solid year of toting the VHS tape around everywhere I went to make the contacts and get the first gig. People gotta make their mark somehow and I don't see photography being any different in having to build up that successful portfolio to attract attention.

Cheers for the last comment.

Building a portfolio and selling images are most commonly 2 different things. Your OP was about selling, not building a Portfolio.

If you are giving them away in exchange for access to their "camp", That is really paying them, not selling. However I can see your 'relation' point. However I would have gone back to the 'at cost' thing. Tell them they can have copies at cost if they let you take the shots Rather than free prints..