Is it the camera or the photographer?

No ones talking about playing it safe. You'll never achieve greatness by playing it safe but producing substandard work because of lack of knowledge is not a good way to go. Learn the rules then break them when it fits your vision to and by all means never play it safe but not learning is paramount to not caring what you produce and producing technically substandard work is never going to do you or anyone any good.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #5726105
No ones talking about playing it safe. You'll never achieve greatness by playing it safe but producing substandard work because of lack of knowledge is not a good way to go. Learn the rules then break them when it fits your vision to and by all means never play it safe but not learning is paramount to not caring what you produce and producing technically substandard work is never going to do you or anyone any good.

No argument from me on that. The problem, however, is with the word "substandard" - one person's awesome is another person's "blech." Some people tout Ansel Adams as the end all be all of photography in general, let alone landscapes. I honestly don't care much for it.

Someone posted a link to some famous photographer's cell phone across America photos as being these great images. I saw B&W cell phone snaps. The name apparently carried it for some people. Not my cup of tea and not what I strive to achieve. Certainly nothing I would call a "standard." I guess these days if you're already famous, you can make anything B&W and it's got merit.

The truth is, mastering your camera doesn't take much effort. You can figure it's ins and outs in a week or so. It's the light (reading, analyzing, manipulating), composition, timing, & subject matter that takes a bit of doing. That has little to do with your kit though, beyond having an aperture that can gather enough photons in lower light levels and such.

primoz wrote in post #5725974
NAh it's the opposite. If photo is great, then it's photographer, but when photo is bad, it's always camera's fault

I have a friend who isn't really a very good photographer, but every time he gets shots he does not like he always blames his camera for it. Apparently one of his lenses works some days, and doesn't others

Try and get a B&W image past an art director, graphic designer, photo editor thats substandard you can kiss that client good bye. Whether you want to admit it or not there is a standard and it was set with silver gelatin b&w prints. For digital B&W to be taken seriously and you to be taken seriously if you're doing B&W the bar has been set and you need to at least be able to recognize whether your work measures up and the only way to do that is to actually know what the standard is. Or if your working in the world where these fore mentioned people are judging your work and hiring you if your work isn't up to a certain technical level that career will be short lived. I work in it every day and believe they will hand you your lunch.

The truth is learning to use your camera is easy for it to become second nature a point when your just responding and not thinking technically takes a bit more time and finding you way to your own vision usually takes years.

emorphien wrote in post #5726166
I have a friend who isn't really a very good photographer, but every time he gets shots he does not like he always blames his camera for it. Apparently one of his lenses works some days, and doesn't others

According to Adams even his camera only worked well a few times a year.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #5726183
Try and get a B&W image past an art director, graphic designer, photo editor thats substandard you can kiss that client good bye. Whether you want to admit it or not there is a standard and it was set with silver gelatin b&w prints. For digital B&W to be taken seriously and you to be taken seriously if you're doing B&W the bar has been set and you need to at least be able to recognize whether your work measures up and the only way to do that is to actually know what the standard is. Or if your working in the world where these fore mentioned people are judging your work and hiring you if your work isn't up to a certain technical level that career will be short lived. I work in it every day and believe they will hand you your lunch.

The truth is learning to use your camera is easy for it to become second nature a point when your just responding and not thinking technically takes a bit more time and finding you way to your own vision usually takes years.

That's fine but there's a big world out there that doesn't involve art directors, graphic designers (shouldn't they be working the images to their own specs, not relying on the photographer for post-processing anyway?), and photo editors.

In fact there are many different LEVELS of commercial photography, so one photo editor's reject is another editor's front page.

Again, standards vary.

Do I think half-assing your work is a good thing though? Of course not. I never did say that putting out total crap is fine and something we should all be happy doing. In fact I'm never really and truly satisfied with the images I produce. I want to do better every time I pick up my camera.

My point is, there are many photography genres and not all "industry standards" apply to them. My inability to make a B&W print to an art director's specifications has no bearing on my abilities as a wedding photographer.

breal101 wrote in post #5726190
According to Adams even his camera only worked well a few times a year.

Well I think I'm just going to say the circumstances are somewhat different

I guess my question would be why wouldn't you want to strive to be the best? When did knowledge become a bad thing?

airfrogusmc wrote in post #5726447
I guess my question would be why wouldn't you want to strive to be the best? When did knowledge become a bad thing?

When did being new to "serious" photography become a bad thing?

When did it become deserving of derision for an enthusiastic newcomer to buy a first DSLR, take a shot that was flawed, and post it asking for advice? Or, even worse, to take a shot that surpassed anything he/she had done before, and posted it, not realizing that some people would express contempt at the fact that the photo had flaws?

When did asking questions about basic things become bad? How many books must one read before they are allowed to ask a question that others with more knowledge know the answer to?

When did it become bad to be enthusiastic about photography and, even though one understands little, to buy the best gear one can afford in hopes of learning to use that gear to take increasingly better photos?

breal101 wrote in post #5726190
According to Adams even his camera only worked well a few times a year.

Probably because he hauled a LF 8x10 camera, glass backs, filters, and one heavy-ass tripod up and down large mountains.

Not to mention, he didn't have one-hour photo labs on every corner.

tonylong wrote in post #5726670
When did being new to "serious" photography become a bad thing?

When did it become deserving of derision for an enthusiastic newcomer to buy a first DSLR, take a shot that was flawed, and post it asking for advice? Or, even worse, to take a shot that surpassed anything he/she had done before, and posted it, not realizing that some people would express contempt at the fact that the photo had flaws?

When did asking questions about basic things become bad? How many books must one read before they are allowed to ask a question that others with more knowledge know the answer to?

When did it become bad to be enthusiastic about photography and, even though one understands little, to buy the best gear one can afford in hopes of learning to use that gear to take increasingly better photos?

From my humble perspective, for someone totally new to photography, buying a 5D (or any Mark-series body) and L glass is not only a waste of money but a sure fire way to frustration on their part. Why not start out with a Rebel with kit lens, learn the basics and fundamentals of photography before upgrading? The answer is simple, really. People are suckered into buying gear they don't need based on glossy ads, "bigger is better" syndrome, and ego. The refrain is common, "Look! This camera has 30MP processor and fires 20fps! That's what I need!"

Sure, people should be able to purchase what they can afford and floats their boat BUT that does NOT mean they should! Just cruise through the gear forums and read all the posts from people complaining their new gear isn't producing results they want. I'd venture to say a pretty decent number are from people who bought way, WAY above their skill level.

I'm all for people coming into the hobby! The more, the merrier! I just think it's better overall if they start out slowly and learn the basics with gear that matches their skill level.

Karl C wrote in post #5726801
I just think it's better overall if they start out slowly and learn the basics with gear that matches their skill level.

I absolutely refuse to use a cereal box camera. And you can't make me!

cdifoto wrote in post #5726929
I absolutely refuse to use a cereal box camera. And you can't make me!

I think a few people woke up grumpy this morning.

I let her sleep in

At last a little humor

Au contraire mon ami, why be so judgemental concerning what a neophyte should buy.

For me, it is not frustrating. On the contrary, it tells me that the reasons my images are crap is entirely user error,
which is not always the case in inexpensive gear. Kinda puts the onus on me.

Karl C wrote in post #5726801
From my humble perspective, for someone totally new to photography, buying a 5D (or any Mark-series body) and L glass is not only a waste of money but a sure fire way to frustration on their part. Why not start out with a Rebel with kit lens, learn the basics and fundamentals of photography before upgrading? The answer is simple, really. People are suckered into buying gear they don't need based on glossy ads, "bigger is better" syndrome, and ego. The refrain is common, "Look! This camera has 30MP processor and fires 20fps! That's what I need!"

Sure, people should be able to purchase what they can afford and floats their boat BUT that does NOT mean they should! Just cruise through the gear forums and read all the posts from people complaining their new gear isn't producing results they want. I'd venture to say a pretty decent number are from people who bought way, WAY above their skill level.

I'm all for people coming into the hobby! The more, the merrier! I just think it's better overall if they start out slowly and learn the basics with gear that matches their skill level.

Well, who sets that "starting point"? I say the only person who can say what the best starting point is will be the one making the decision. And why not a 5D if the person decides that it fits within their budget? Who can possibly judge them for getting a fine camera? Do you seriously believe that a person would be disadvantaged in any way by buying, say, a 5D with a "kit" 24-105 L lens over a Rebel and kit lens? The 5D is, in fact, as easy to learn and use as a 20D or a 30D...

Now, if a person introduces his/her desire to enter the DSLR realm with an indication that they are on a restrictive budget, then I have no hesitation recommending a Rebel or a used 20D/30D whatever. But some of the arguments and judgements against buying high quality gear lean into arrogance, IMO. A person who is serious about learning and developing photography skills/understanding can learn just as easily with a 5D or a 1D and can grow into a body they won't feel compelled to unload within a year, and can benefit from the advanced qualities of those bodies sooner rather than later.

There are, of course, people who just want an advanced point and shoot camera, who aren't serious about "serious" photography, who won't want to read the manual, much less delve into photography books and tutorials. Those people would probably be best served by an advanced point and shoot such as the G9 or the S5 IS and I'd have no problem nudging them in that direction. And, someone who says something like "I don't want to bother reading the manual, could you tell me what it says?", well, when I loaned my son my 30D not long ago, I helped him get started, but then his homework assignment was to read the manual once through while taking some practice shots. Then ask me some more questions.