Banned!!! Maybe, Maybe not.

LeeSC wrote in post #5759371
A controlled venue, where there are gates and entrance fees charged, is a different story. IMO, once an entrance fee is charged the venue is no longer public and has every right to control photography.

As far as the photographer going to court over parent's pics, I think the solution is simple. All the parents needed to band together and refuse to sign model releases for their children. Whether the Studio was right or wrong, it seems just like bad business.

And on the parent photos deal, do I have the right to sue the Studio for missing a pic of my son hitting a game winning home run?

Agreed with everything posted. Just as an aside to the example that I posted, the parents of 5 of the teams did get together and have demanded that their games be moved to a different venue in order to avoid the "**** like tactics"(direct quote from local paper) that the pro studio was engaged in. That has caused quite a bit of consternation here on the part of the local sports complex because it means loss of revenue!

I would highly doubt that the city would do an exclusive contract. it is a public place that is payed for by the tax payers of the city. i doubt there were any releases signed by the parents at sign ups for the ball league that indicated there is a contracted photographer. so who is to say that a parent could not hire the OP to photograph action shots of there child? city would loose that in a court battle in about 2 sec.

I shoot alot of softball for tournaments, some I am contracted to some I am not. And I have run across this problem before at a tournament I was not contracted to do. Here is the law at least in CT. No one can stop you from shooting on public property (in the case where admission is charged, paying means you agree to their terms which may include no photography), if its a city owned ball field the contract with the league is meaningless for shots like candids and action taken from public areas of the fields. You can photograph from anywhere outside of the 'official game site' meaning out in dead ball territory with out league permission and if they allow it and the game officials approve from within. The local photographers are probably concerned your looking to steal their gig, call them and explain your not and their objections may go away. If not just be polite and don't get into a huge thing with them at the fields it just looks bad for you and gives people a reason to ban you

The Exchange Club should insist that future contracts include action shots from a specified number of games and only award the contract to a photographer that will provide them along with the T&I. If a photographer is not willing to spend the time taking action shots than he shouldn't bid on the contract. It's not right to only take the most profitable work and then complain when some one wants to do what you refuse to.

Dennis_Hammer wrote in post #5760886
I shoot alot of softball for tournaments, some I am contracted to some I am not. And I have run across this problem before at a tournament I was not contracted to do. Here is the law at least in CT. No one can stop you from shooting on public property (in the case where admission is charged, paying means you agree to their terms which may include no photography), if its a city owned ball field the contract with the league is meaningless for shots like candids and action taken from public areas of the fields. You can photograph from anywhere outside of the 'official game site' meaning out in dead ball territory with out league permission and if they allow it and the game officials approve from within. The local photographers are probably concerned your looking to steal their gig, call them and explain your not and their objections may go away. If not just be polite and don't get into a huge thing with them at the fields it just looks bad for you and gives people a reason to ban you

Does this include shooting for profit? I know solicitation is banned at a lot of parks...Would this constitute solicitation?

I like what someone said about Model Releases.

If that studio is profiting off of those shots and the parents of the kids did not sign any type of model release to the league or the studio then we are talking about a potential lawsuit as each "model" (and their legal guardians) are entitled to a fee for the use and sale of those picture.

The "Board" or "league" can't give away copyrights of those "models" unless said "models" had to sign such in order to play.

If they want to play hardball you can definately play that game if you can get the parents to file a complaint as well as a request for payment for the use of their "models" pictures by the studio.

Ok, some people really have to learn laws, contracts, exclusivity, etc. before they post because your opinion means nothing! No offense but see so many posts that are far from the truth or what will/can actually happen.

(just for reference I'm not saying this to the OP but the responses mostly)

#1 - The league is sanctioned (i.e. it's not a pick up game in a public place) then you need permission to shoot, even if it's on a public field they are more than likely renting the grounds or have some agreement with the town/city and the things you are shooting (the game) are exclusive to that league - they can set whatever rules they want and ban cameras at the drop of a dime.

#2 - learn what public is, a baseball diamond is not public, even the local high schools paid by tax dollars is not public and again they can tell you to stop shooting. So the people that say "I'd like to see them try" well I hope they do some day, because already heard the stories of people being thrown out and cameras banned many times, they try to challenge and lose easily. Again, look back to #1 and see even on public ground the league is still sanctioned and what you're shooting they can make you stop if you don't have permission to shoot their league. Public is not always public.

#3 - The people giving there stuff away are the same people who will be complaining because a guy in the middle east will do it for 1/4th the price you will. These people don't usually affect good pros (but it's obvious many so called pros are not any good as they can be seen everywhere). I dont think I've ever feared someone giving stuff away, I believe my stuff is better and parents will still buy - but I dont blame any pro who worked hard to land the league for trying to protect it. Last year I had a bunch of parents shooting over my shoulder trying to compare, not one did this year after seeing they're not getting the results I assume.

#4 - Model releases, you're confusing commercial vs. editorial use. Prints are deemed editorial, those magnets, coffee mugs, etc. are more commercial. HOWEVER, it's the parents putting those images on those as they order and they are not pre-made for sale to anyone, so that gets rid of the model release problem. Though I'm not sure it's ever been challenged, because the photogs are not the ones putting the images on the merchandise - it's the parents and there choice to buy one, the stuff isn't commercially available pre-made. Prints are considered editorial and no model release is needed. If the photog was using the images for promotional purpose like postcards or something then yes they need model releases.

#5 - exclusivity - the people who are not getting it in writing are only hurting themselves. Verbal agreements don't stand up. Once they land a league photogs want to protect what they have, I'm sure noone here would feel to good if someone just randomly walked into there place of employment one day and decided to do your work for less trying to move you out the door - you'd be complaining non-stop about how it's your job and your work place.

#6 - Parents hiring a photog to come in, the parents would win? Wrong again, the league can deny that photog from shooting for any reason they want.

#7 - The league can make you stop selling the pics, even the ones you took if it's not in writing that you are allowed. They however cannot make you take it off your site as without sales its considered editorial as long as you're not using the images to sell something.

#8 - if you want to shoot a league contact the league and take it over the right way by working out a deal in writing before the season or whenever you find an opening, pissin off the photog that has the contract is not the way to go, disrespecting the business as well isn't going to help and you'll be complaining when someone else does the same thing to you!

NOT saying that all would happen as the leagues are usually run by parents or people in the community that don't know squat - but in reality it could...and I'm sure I mis-spoke somewhere above writing this fast as possible to get back to work and a major lack of sleep but there was just to many wrong comments to ignore.

I'd have to disagree with the Public/Private debate. We shoot for a magazine and go to many events and festivals. Now almost all festivals have their own staff photograpers, but that doesnt mean they can tell us we cant walk around and take pictures of the event for the magazine.

Unless it's a concert where you have to get permission from the venue itself, then most events are open to take pictures at. Just because someone rented a baseball diamond in the town park, it doesnt mean this diamond is now theirs and you cant sit off the field taking pictures.

Granted, do I want to get into a pissing match with a bunch of angry parents, No way, I've seen way too many videos of that on TV, but I wouldnt back down lightly.

Bid on the contract for next year is my advice

I was told that the Exchange Club owns the land where the games are played, which makes it private property (I think). Maybe you all can shed some light on this as well: The Exchange Club is a tax exempt club. A friend of mine looked up some legal info on tax exempt status and allowing people exclusive rights to come there and make a profit is against the law. Here is what he found:

What is private inurement?

Private inurement is prohibited in all nonprofits. It happens when an insider — an individual who has significant influence over the organization — enters into an arrangement with the nonprofit and receives benefits greater than she or he provides in return.

The most common example is excessive compensation, which the IRS condemns through intermediate sanctions (significant excise taxes). Insiders — referred to in IRS parlance as "disqualified persons" — can be high-level managers, board members, founders, major donors, highest paid employees, family members of any of the above, and a business where the listed persons own more than 35 percent of an interest.

Private inurement is an absolute term. There is no de minimis restriction. If a nonprofit is organized to benefit an individual, even while fulfilling its tax-exempt purpose, it cannot be a tax-exempt organization. Under the state law, an organization may lose its nonprofit status. <end>

So, for the Exchange Club to have a "buddy buddy" system, can I report them and they lose their tax exempt status?

I do not see the pro's arguement or reason for being upset. I have done the whole sports baseball..football before.. The team shots and individual are totally different than the action shots. I always did these shots 1st or second week of the starting season. The action shots would not have had any impact on my sales.
Maybe you should offer the leauge a kickback to thier association based on your sales.

Let me say that shooting of the posed single/team shots was easy. Collecting the money and assembling the packages was a PAIN *LOL*... Buttons..magnets..mirr​ors.. assembling the memory mates..verifying the order *YUCK*.. It was good money though

While I am not going to go point by point with anyone, heres the facts where I am. I shoot a lot high school sports while I am hired by the school one informed me before hiring me that they can't stop anyone else from coming to shoot, they could however ask them to leave the property but wouldn't as long as they were not disruptive. They could not 'solicit'. As far as parks go, they are 'public' and as I said you can't enter the field but all spectator areas are free to use. Leagues (at least where I am) don't pay to use fields they are 'permitted' as in they receive permits. They have no jurisdiction over the field other than use of. They can't have anyone removed they can only request to have them removed, and only for cause. So as far as a 'league ' owned property obviously they can do whatever they want its 'private property. And in reference to their using a for profit photographer, I do fund raising photography also and a tax exempt or not for profit organization can promote and use a for profit business if they are receiving compensation in the form of donations or services. They all sell ads and sponsorships for businesses. And all photographers that shoot T&I pics rebate a percentage back in the form of a donation.

EveryMilesAMemory wrote in post #5775720
I'd have to disagree with the Public/Private debate. We shoot for a magazine and go to many events and festivals. Now almost all festivals have their own staff photograpers, but that doesnt mean they can tell us we cant walk around and take pictures of the event for the magazine.

Unless it's a concert where you have to get permission from the venue itself, then most events are open to take pictures at. Just because someone rented a baseball diamond in the town park, it doesnt mean this diamond is now theirs and you cant sit off the field taking pictures.

Granted, do I want to get into a pissing match with a bunch of angry parents, No way, I've seen way too many videos of that on TV, but I wouldnt back down lightly.

Bid on the contract for next year is my advice

Just because they don't doesn't mean they can't! You're shooting for a magazine, publicity, something they want and of course will let you because the more promotion the better. Try undercutting the event photographer and see how long he/she lets you continue to shoot there...this of course can be debated depending on the location and the permissions granted. For example in town here they hold this event every year, pretty much shuts the town down - one side of the town is a rodeo, you need permission to go shoot that (private grounds with admission). On the other end of town is this street festival, there's no agreement between promoters or anything - it's just known that street shuts down and people party. You can shoot all you want on the public street - but the businesses that are open (store, bars) you can't just walk in and start shooting without permission even though it's part of the festival technically.

The diamond is not theres but the LEAGUE is and you shooting THEIR league is up to them. So yea, you're right they don't own the diamond and you can take as many pics as you want of an empty first base sitting there as long as you don't get any players in the pics.

snyper77 wrote in post #5775850
I was told that the Exchange Club owns the land where the games are played, which makes it private property (I think). Maybe you all can shed some light on this as well: The Exchange Club is a tax exempt club. A friend of mine looked up some legal info on tax exempt status and allowing people exclusive rights to come there and make a profit is against the law. Here is what he found:

What is private inurement?

Private inurement is prohibited in all nonprofits. It happens when an insider — an individual who has significant influence over the organization — enters into an arrangement with the nonprofit and receives benefits greater than she or he provides in return.

The most common example is excessive compensation, which the IRS condemns through intermediate sanctions (significant excise taxes). Insiders — referred to in IRS parlance as "disqualified persons" — can be high-level managers, board members, founders, major donors, highest paid employees, family members of any of the above, and a business where the listed persons own more than 35 percent of an interest.

Private inurement is an absolute term. There is no de minimis restriction. If a nonprofit is organized to benefit an individual, even while fulfilling its tax-exempt purpose, it cannot be a tax-exempt organization. Under the state law, an organization may lose its nonprofit status. <end>

So, for the Exchange Club to have a "buddy buddy" system, can I report them and they lose their tax exempt status?

This has nothing at all to do with it, not one bit. Schools are tax exempt and have people bid on products all the time, my AD makes me get 3-4 bids on equipment every time we're getting something to get the best prices - this includes services like a photographer. If the photographer was the head of the board and wouldn't listen to bids from others he/she may be treading in some muddy water - but if it's an outside person and not directly involved with the organization then they are in no way even close to what you suggested.

Lastly, is this something you want to post in a public forum for them to see? I hope you're using a fake name for the club - how do you know the league photog isn't part of this forum forwarding this?

scorpio_e wrote in post #5776502
I do not see the pro's arguement or reason for being upset. I have done the whole sports baseball..football before.. The team shots and individual are totally different than the action shots. I always did these shots 1st or second week of the starting season. The action shots would not have had any impact on my sales.
Maybe you should offer the leauge a kickback to thier association based on your sales.

Let me say that shooting of the posed single/team shots was easy. Collecting the money and assembling the packages was a PAIN *LOL*... Buttons..magnets..mirr​ors.. assembling the memory mates..verifying the order *YUCK*.. It was good money though

If they don't bring up a kickback you shouldn't either - I dont get kickbacks and have never done one. I know some leagues use images as a fundraiser and ok, I'll raise my prices and do it for that but the league has to understand my profit margin isn't going down as it's already low enough so the parents are paying more. See what the current photogs do, check there prices and bid on the league like a normal company would do. Match there prices if you have to and take over both T&I and action because it's great to have a photog who does both and makes life easier for everyone!

As mentioned above T&I is worth it, though so many hate to do it for some reason, once you develop a system things can move pretty quickly. What used to take forever when first getting into youth sports now flys (note I started in pro sports and just supplied pics to editors or team media guys who did the rest). There's still a ton of work involved, a lot more than parents probably realize (shooting, cropping, editing, organizing, packaging, triple checking every order to make sure its right, etc) but it's not as bad as people think - the most time consuming is cropping/editing each order. This year I got all orders back in about 2 weeks, 2 years ago it was taking 5-6 or more weeks with no system in place and trying to develop one. The only thing you have to make sure you do is offer a product the parents can't do themselves. Like mentioned above I used to have parents shoot over my shoulder all the time and I welcomed it because they'd see side by side they can't offer what I was doing with the T&I as well as action. I dont think one did this year, no wait, take that back - remember a baseball kids mom did, she musta been new.

Ok, again I write this fast as possible to get to the stadium in time so forgive and errors.

Dennis_Hammer wrote in post #5776814
While I am not going to go point by point with anyone, heres the facts where I am. I shoot a lot high school sports while I am hired by the school one informed me before hiring me that they can't stop anyone else from coming to shoot, they could however ask them to leave the property but wouldn't as long as they were not disruptive. They could not 'solicit'. As far as parks go, they are 'public' and as I said you can't enter the field but all spectator areas are free to use. Leagues (at least where I am) don't pay to use fields they are 'permitted' as in they receive permits. They have no jurisdiction over the field other than use of. They can't have anyone removed they can only request to have them removed, and only for cause. So as far as a 'league ' owned property obviously they can do whatever they want its 'private property. And in reference to their using a for profit photographer, I do fund raising photography also and a tax exempt or not for profit organization can promote and use a for profit business if they are receiving compensation in the form of donations or services. They all sell ads and sponsorships for businesses. And all photographers that shoot T&I pics rebate a percentage back in the form of a donation.

And this is where? Because in the U.S. schools can DEFINATELY make you leave and if you refuse have you arrested. If this is a U.S. based school whoever you talked to doesn't know what they're talking about and was using that as an exuse to not have to deal with you complaining if anyone else was on your "turf". Been working in the school system for a long time and that's a fact that they can. Just search on these boards and you'll see a lot of threads about this already.

Private vs. Public is also on this board a ton, and read above - the league is theres, the field isn't. You can't shoot the league (players) without permission - but go ahead and shoot the field as long as THEIR players are not in the pics.

A photog can land a not for profit and not donate back, though usually they do. That's if it's two different entities, i.e. the photog isn't directly part of the not for profit. Schools again for example, our photog did nothing but give the AD a CD of images for use in the yearbook as a "kickback" and nothing more - no money.

Before they voted on me, they asked me if I'd be interested in bidding against the pro studio for next year's T&I shots. I said "No, I am not here to hurt anyone like that". But after thinking it over... and seeing how the pro studio has pushed me around by having me banned from taking/selling action shots, I emailed the head board member back and said "You mentioned something about taking bids next year. I believe I may be interested."

I'm not sure if I'd be way in over my head, but I'd work my *** off to do a dang good job!