Outdoor flash

If you shoot AV mode, that automatically puts the flash in fill flash mode.

Shooting wrote in post #5767444
If you shoot AV mode, that automatically puts the flash in fill flash mode.

I have seen no evidence that E-TTL works any differently in M vs. Av or Tv.

I have done a few tests that seem to confirm this. I would take a shot in Av mode, check the EXIF, switch to M with the same exposure settings and take another shot, and I see no apparent difference in the flash exposure. It should be easy enough for you to do the same sort of test to see if I'm nuts (be sure to keep the same composition to minimize E-TTL variance).

The idea that E-TTL flash works differently depending on camera mode is a widely held misconception.

Curtis - I have also always thought that, in av mode, the flash would act as fill. Are you saying that isn't the case? What about dialling in, say -1 on the flash gun itself?

Curtis N wrote in post #5768901
I have seen no evidence that E-TTL works any differently in M vs. Av or Tv.

I was under impression that flash will do fill flash only in Av and Tv mode. I need to read EOS bible again.

I somehow misunderstood fill flash in EOS Bile. Yes it clearly says, fill flashworks in all three modes, Av,Tv and M modes:

>Canon EOS cameras always default to fill flash mode when the camera is in Tv, Av and M modes.

It really is a subjective evaluation. As some have said, it looks good as is, some suggest a little more ambient and less flash. I tend to agree that a little less flash, and a little bit more ambient, would be better suited to me. But its more than adequate as is.

The L358 light meter will help you a lot in this case. It can also give you an idea of how much flash is being used in comparison to the ambient lighting. This will also be helpful over time as you get used to what you prefer regarding the relationship, and what the scene calls for. Start playing around with it. As Robert says, it will soon become your best friend.

I can't add much more to the discussion regarding using E-TTL in any of the modes. I use it on occasion, but am by no means an expert in that area. I tend to use manual flash because it's a lot easier then tweaking FEC, EC, etc to get the results I want. I find it takes a lot more time to figure out what the camera will do in a given scenario, then dial in the right adjustments to override its decision to conform to what I am after. So instead, I just tell it what I want from the start and don't have to outguess it

Here is an example I took just last week. I used a Canon 580ex in a small softbox on camera left. I adjusted the ambient exposure for about 1/3 under, and the strobe for about 1/3rd over. This gave me an exposure that dropped the background a bit, but left the subject properly exposed.

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sfaust wrote in post #5769465
I tend to use manual flash because it's a lot easier then tweaking FEC, EC, etc to get the results I want. I find it takes a lot more time to figure out what the camera will do in a given scenario, then dial in the right adjustments to override its decision to conform to what I am after. So instead, I just tell it what I want from the start and don't have to outguess it .

Thanks for bringing this discussion back to manual flash, where it originated. That's a real nice portrait, by the way!

When your subject is being paid to pose, or paying you to make a good portrait, I agree with Stephen that manually-controlled exposure of both ambient and flash is the way to go. Learning the concepts involved in controlling and metering manual flash is the best route toward consistent results.

People who shoot events, sports, photojournalism and other situations with little control or predictability will need help from E-TTL and other technologies at our disposal to make "getting the shot" simpler, albeit less consistent.

Roy Mathers wrote in post #5769061
Curtis - I have also always thought that, in av mode, the flash would act as fill. Are you saying that isn't the case? What about dialling in, say -1 on the flash gun itself?

With E-TTL flash, your FEC setting will almost always need to be different, depending on whether you're relying on the flash to provide all of your subject exposure or only part of it. Subject luminance (white dress vs. black tux) needs to be factored in also.

I rarely set my FEC as low as -1 unless I want the flash contribution to be very subtle. There are a lot of variables and only extensive experimentation will allow you to achieve results with any degree of predictability.

What about my original comment, and the posts by sgogula, that the av setting automatically puts it in fill-flash mode?

Roy Mathers wrote in post #5770483
What about my original comment, and the posts by sgogula, that the av setting automatically puts it in fill-flash mode?

Roy, realistically speaking, yes. That is because the camera is attempting to properly expose the scene with ambient light, so the flash is only supplementing the ambient light (filling in).

However, if you set the camera up the exact same way in M, you will get the exact same "fill" results.

When using the flash as your primary light source, you will typically set the camera to underexpose the ambient by around 2 stops. You can do this in M, or simply dial down your EC in AV. This eliminates the "fill" effect in AV mode.

OP, I think the "too much flash" comments may be because of the color temp of the ambient light (warmer sunset). It may or may not help to use a 1/8 or 1/4 CTO gel on your flash to even out the color temp so that the light from the flash isn't so "cool". The first shot looks a bit better than the second one in regards to that.

It really isn't a bad shot though. It isn't over-flashed at all, exposure seems pretty good overall.

Av mode does set the flash on fill mode as does Tv and M, but only if the flash is set to E-TTL and not to Manual. Also, fill mode is only set if the ambient light is high enough (more than EV 10, I think).

DDCSD wrote in post #5770548
OP, I think the "too much flash" comments may be because of the color temp of the ambient light (warmer sunset). It may or may not help to use a 1/8 or 1/4 CTO gel on your flash to even out the color temp so that the light from the flash isn't so "cool". The first shot looks a bit better than the second one in regards to that.

It really isn't a bad shot though. It isn't over-flashed at all, exposure seems pretty good overall.

I agree. The flash is cooler than the ambient so the skin looks pale.

DDCSD wrote in post #5770536
Roy, realistically speaking, yes. That is because the camera is attempting to properly expose the scene with ambient light, so the flash is only supplementing the ambient light (filling in).

However, if you set the camera up the exact same way in M, you will get the exact same "fill" results.

When using the flash as your primary light source, you will typically set the camera to underexpose the ambient by around 2 stops. You can do this in M, or simply dial down your EC in AV. This eliminates the "fill" effect in AV mode.

Derek - a couple of questions. How does the camera know whether you are using the flash as your primary light source, or if you want it 'to properly expose the scene with ambient light'? Secondly, I don't understand how you can set the camera up in exactly the same way in 'M'.

Life was much easier when I was shooting film with a Bronica. I had a Metz 45-CL flash and I just dialled in the aperture I wanted to use (on the flash). So, if I was using f/8 on the camera, I told the flash I was using f/11 - and I got the flash underexposed by one stop. This obviously would vary on the background and, for instance, whether the sun was directly behind the subject. I could therefore have any degree of fill that I wanted, quickly and easily

Not being too experienced with the 580EX in manual mode, I don't know if a similar facility is available with it.

Roy Mathers wrote in post #5770483
What about my original comment, and the posts by sgogula, that the av setting automatically puts it in fill-flash mode?

You can test it yourself easy enough. Put the camera on a tripod to ensure the same composition. Take a shot in Av, check the EXIF, switch to manual and dial in the same settings, take another shot. Compare the results.

Roy Mathers wrote in post #5770597
Life was much easier when I was shooting film with a Bronica. I had a Metz 45-CL flash and I just dialled in the aperture I wanted to use (on the flash). So, if I was using f/8 on the camera, I told the flash I was using f/11 - and I got the flash underexposed by one stop.

For what it's worth, my FEC setting for fill flash is typically about a stop less than if I'm using flash as the only light source. Usually +2/3 to +1 for flash as primary light, and -1/3 to 0 for fill. So I guess you could say the same theory applies.

It's not quite that simple though. E-TTL evaluates the scene and attempts to identify the subject, so it will behave differently than an old-fashioned automatic flash unit.