Banned!!! Part 2

Well, for some reason, the local pro studio felt the need to send me an email personally about the baseball action shots.

Pro Studio wrote:
I wanted to personally contact you about this baseball issue. I know you have been told numerous times by exchange club members that you can't do action shots for profit at the baseball fields, but I felt like I needed to contact you to let you know why...just in case that hasn't been fully explained to you.

Basically what this whole thing boils down to is that I pay a licensing fee (or commission) of $1500 to photograph the teams and their individual if they choose to have them made. There are no guarantees on my part...if nobody orders I lose $1500 because of the contract agreement between me and the exchange club.

Now I understand that what you're doing is completely speculation also so if you don't sell anything then you're out your time only...not $1500. I'm not opposed to you being out there shooting for profit as long as we're playing by the same guidelines. I actually think that action shots are a needed photographic service for baseball and one that we're actually looking to hire someone next year to do.

In our industry, paying a licensing fee or commission is very common with schools or organizations who hire a photographer on contract basis. With all the schools I photograph, I have to pay a sizable commission back to the school to be the contract photographer.

I'm not trying to discourage you from photographing, because it's obviously a passion of yours, but I am discouraging you from shooting to sell to the schools or organizations that I have a contract with. If you want to photograph children, seniors and weddings then we can compete head to head, but please respect my contract work by not selling your photos (specifically summer baseball, Private School events, or any other school I have contracts with.)

We take great pride in what we do and we have to protect our business. I don't photograph as a hobby or for supplemental income...this is my livelihood. This is what puts food on my table for my 3 year old and 9 month old.

If you want to meet with me and discuss this issue further, please feel free to contact me. I have listed all of my phone numbers where you can reach me. <end>

My reply:
Thank you for taking time from your busy schedule to clarify the information below. Please allow me just a few moments to make a few clarifications as well. Your email states that I have been told numerous times by Exchange Club members that I can't shoot for profit at the baseball fields. Fact is, I have never been told that. Someone fed you incorrect information. A board member came to me and said I had to get permission from XXX to shoot action photos. I called XXX and he said "I have no problem with it".

Also, other local photographers have shot for profit at the Exchange Club fields, Private School sports, etc., for years now. I have spoken to some of those photographers and it seems that they have never received this type of email from you. Why is that?

I fully understand the fees and commissions. I also understand the difference in verbal and written contracts. To prevent anything like this from happening again, there will be written contracts in the future on my end. You may want to consider that as well.

People who know me, know that I am not a troublemaker. I'm as laid back as they come. I didn't attend those ball games "to make money". While shooting a friend's son, I had several people ask me to shoot their kids on the field. It snowball from there. And just like you, I have bills and 2 children. Many times, I have to work a 2nd or even a 3rd job to supplement my income.

I highly respect you and your work. This town is very small and it's very easy for you and I to cross paths. I would like to take this opportunity to wish you continued success and we'll talk further in the near future. <end>

I look forward to hearing everyone's input here. I feel like I'm being pushed around and I simply won't stand for it. I'm a man with bills, just as he is.
Thank you all for your time.

Well, fortunately for you, YOUR work and HIS work are not the same. He offers portraits and team shots, you're offering live action shots. Had you been offering team photos, there'd be a major issue. Seems to me this guy is just a bit threatened that you're offering something he didn't, and his contract doesn't actually prohibit you from doing what you're doing.

If I were to guess, I think it's a fair bet that he's going to include the live action shots in his work load next year, and update the contract to prohibit others from doing it. If I were you, I'd pitch a proposal to the league before he can beat you to it. They may give you the go-ahead to cover games and sell the images, so long as they get a cut of the profit, and just leave that part open to competition (as it's HIGHLY unlikely he has the manpower to cover every game for every team) in a season. The fact that it's virtually impossible to cover every game should be a good thing to mention to the league when trying to get the OK to continue shooting as you have been. Per the notification they gave you from their meeting, it would sound like they're going to have you pay to be allowed to shoot, just like this other guy has to.

I'd have some specific concerns as to the images you'd already posted for sale. They may or may not have the authority to tell you that you can not sell those images. Of course, without knowing the specifics, it's hard to tell.. gets into the whole issue of it being public, private, ticketed, etc.

Your email was a bit unnecessary. If the league is the shot-caller, why bother wasting exchanges or trading barbs with this guy when in the end, they dictate what both of you can and can not do? You don't want to get into a pissing match with anyone, especially if he happens to be friends with anyone on the league's decision making board. Deal with the league, and only the league.

"I appreciate your situation, and thanks for attempting to clarify, but I'd prefer dealing directly with the league when it comes to my photography ventures and this particular matter. If you have concerns over your contract, I suggest you notify the league and proceed from there."
IE, Keep your nose outta my business and stick with your own.

ChrisRabior: Just a note to clarify something. The reason I replied to the pro studio's email was because HE copied all board members of the exchange club on the email. I did not want all those members to think that "I had been told numerous times that I am not allowed to shoot for profit". There were several things that HE stated that were incorrect and all those members needed to know the truth. So, all those board members were copied on my reply. Just had to clarify that. Thank you for taking the time to leave your input.

I think I would have put in that you are shooting tha action, A hole he evudently is leaving open. And you are not shooting teams or portraits. There seems to be no compition with him at all. Leaving what he does to him. And you doing what you do.

snyper77 wrote in post #5785843
ChrisRabior: Just a note to clarify something. The reason I replied to the pro studio's email was because HE copied all board members of the exchange club on the email. I did not want all those members to think that "I had been told numerous times that I am not allowed to shoot for profit". There were several things that HE stated that were incorrect and all those members needed to know the truth. So, all those board members were copied on my reply. Just had to clarify that. Thank you for taking the time to leave your input.

Well now that changes things a bit. Seems this guy is overstepping his bounds more than I initially saw.

I think I'd probably have replied to all as well, but immediately phoned the director of the league asking whose permission you actually needed to obtain.. the league, or their contracted photographer. Definitely time to sever any conversation you have with this guy and stick to talking straight to the league, without him in the picture.

I learned something new today: Current pro photographers are willing to pay exorbitant amounts of money for permission to take pictures that may or may not generate a profit.
Current Pro photographers are willing to bid against each other (theoretically) to see who can give an organization the most money to be allowed to potentially make money by taking photographs.
Interesting, heh.

I would have expected it to go something like this: Organizations hire a photog for $XX, in return for a cut of any profits they make from the purchase of photo's the photographer takes of the event. The fee would be a stipend, just in case interest in buying prints is low, so that the photographer can at least break even.

It doesn't cost the Organization anything to allow the photographer to take pictures. It seems odd that photographers re subsidizing the salaries of the paid members of the Organization.
Remind me to stay away from that!

I may be wrong, but I thought business kick backs were illegal? Its one thing to offer a percentage back, but for a league to require it? Is this common practice?

c71clark wrote in post #5786576
I learned something new today: Current pro photographers are willing to pay exorbitant amounts of money for permission to take pictures that may or may not generate a profit.
Current Pro photographers are willing to bid against each other (theoretically) to see who can give an organization the most money to be allowed to potentially make money by taking photographs.
Interesting, heh.

I would have expected it to go something like this: Organizations hire a photog for $XX, in return for a cut of any profits they make from the purchase of photo's the photographer takes of the event. The fee would be a stipend, just in case interest in buying prints is low, so that the photographer can at least break even.

It doesn't cost the Organization anything to allow the photographer to take pictures. It seems odd that photographers re subsidizing the salaries of the paid members of the Organization.
Remind me to stay away from that!

It's an ugly trend that's going to get worse, I'd predict. I think it's more common in England than in the US now, but seems to be getting a foothold in the schools and league sports, justified as "support the kiddies with your donation".

If every photographer just said "Thanks, but no thanks." and walked away as soon as the topic of a fee came up (I do), that would put the issue to rest pretty quickly.

Unfortunately, there's nearly always some fool whose willing to pay it, who then ends up scratching and scrambling to make up their expense in sales during the rest of the season.

Done hijacking this thread... now back to your regular programing.

My hunch:

He's appealling to your sense of fair play, because he realizes that his contract with the Exchange Club does not require them to prohibit other people from taking pictures for pay. If there was clear contractual agreement that would preclude what you're doing, the whole matter would have been resolved long before now.

He doesn't have a leg to stand on, legally or ethically.

Well, the board has officially asked me to remove my shopping cart on my website that contains the baseball photos. They said "you can show them online, but please do not sell them". The guy was nice about it... and pretty much, he said "Just give in for now, and let the dust settle, and you'll be good to go for next year". So, I am going to "play the game" for now and remove the shopping cart.

snyper77 wrote in post #5790082
Well, the board has officially asked me to remove my shopping cart on my website that contains the baseball photos. They said "you can show them online, but please do not sell them". The guy was nice about it... and pretty much, he said "Just give in for now, and let the dust settle, and you'll be good to go for next year". So, I am going to "play the game" for now and remove the shopping cart.

I would have him sign that new contract for next year now...

cory1848 wrote in post #5790134
I would have him sign that new contract for next year now...

Except that they will probably want their $1500 cash just like the last guy paid.

If I were you I would just take the for-sale images down to be nice. Just know that the only reason you are doing it is to be nice.
The photographer doesn't have any way to force you to take down the pictures or the site, and if you refused I don't think the board would be able to get you to stop selling pictures that you were allowed to take either.

Take down the shopping cart. Then put in bold letters that they must contact the league to inquire about purchasing these photos.

I think with enough parents complaining, they'll soon come back to you and ask that you put the shopping cart back up. Or, it could backfire and the league goes to the other photographer and asks him to do the action shots. hmm......touch choice.

To be honest I see the pro guys point, though it seems he was given bad info in that you were told to stop shooting. He mentions it's a licensing fee, which is common in sports - it's not a kickback and the money goes back to the teams/league - it's not, or at least shouldn't, be going back to any individual in the organization.

As for you being pushed around, I don't see it. You obviuosly got permission from the wrong people and he's trying to protect his business seeing you as a weekend warrior type stepping on his toes because he paid to be the photographer for that league - you didn't and just showed up. Don't think that's nothing against you because you obviously went and got permission, but from his stand point that's what it looks like to me.

As for the people saying it's two different areas and won't hurt the T&I business - well ok, what if 100 parents decide not to get T&I shots and wait for the action shots, that just hurt his business didn't it? Now if there were no action shots they have to buy his - hence why he paid $1,500 licensing fee to make that happen.

He also says they may be looking for someone to hire next year to shoot action shots, anyone else see that as a job opening or just me? Sure you may not make as much working for him but either you get a percentage of sales or you get a day fee and make money doing it. Sure you want to do it on your own but you have to bid for that next year.

I realize that this has become a matter of principle to you, but I can't imagine that the cash you'd receive from selling a few actions shots would be worth this kind of headache.

If you want REAL headaches...deal with a "Bridezilla" on wedding day!! However, the cash is definitely worth it!!