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Thread started 18 Jul 2008 (Friday) 03:32
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Shooting a restaurant menu

 
Collin85
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Jul 18, 2008 03:32 |  #1

Has anyone here done this job professionally? I've done it a few times for owner-friends and so has never accepted any monetary remuneration (more often just eating all the dishes they cooked for the shoot :lol:). But I'm keen to know how much money would be reasonable to charge for a proper professional shoot.

Would one charge based on the number of hours of coverage? If so, how much? I know it would be dependent on the restaurant (size, rating etc.), but rough estimates would be useful.

Or would one charge based on the number of shots they end up using? For my previous shoots for friends, they used about 50+ very small shots for the menus, and some larger 30 x 20 in. prints for their walls. How should I charge under these circumstances?

I'm not much of a printer, so my job would just be to shoot. I would then provide them with the necessary licenced digital files so they can go print it themselves. Well that's the plan.. but I expect people here advising me not to do this for the 30 x 20 in. shots (and print it myself) right?


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SuzyView
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Jul 18, 2008 07:42 |  #2

If you just shoot the pictures then I'd say either charge them for your time or per picture. I think all Chinese places now have this option and it's so helpful to those ordering for the first time. I would charge by the time you spent and let them at it and put your name as the photographer on the menus. That way you get credit. It costs so little to print large images these days, give them a large file to use and a small one of the same image. They'll appreciate it and will call you again.


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sfaust
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Jul 18, 2008 09:22 |  #3

Typically this is charged like any other commecial job.

Time, usage, and expenses.

Your time is pretty obvious. Typically for a commercial shoot, it could be somewhere in the $1,000 to $2,000 per day range, which covers the photographer, lighting equipment, cameras, etc. The rate also includes your overhead for liability insurance, all your marketing, operating expenses, etc. So while $1,500 per day looks great, it gets eaten up fairly quickly. So don't underestimate what you need to charge.

Usage is how the images will be used, for how long, in what capacities, etc. For something like menus, its not high, but you should still be charging for it or including it in your rate.

Expenses are just that. Anything you needed to hire, rent, pay, or otherwise will be charged for in order to shoot this. An assistant, stylist, travel, props, etc.

Some photographer use two line images, 'Creative Fee', which includes the photographers time as well as usage, and 'Production Expenses' which list all the estimated expenses. Others split out all three line items, charging for 'Creative Fee', 'Usage Fee', and 'Production Expenses'.

You can also purchase FotoQuote which is a historical database of pricing in many different sectors. Its a great starting point when you have no idea what to charge for usage. Since its historical in nature, its like seeing what others have been charging for similar uses, so you can have some confidence in your own pricing.

Keep in mind it is with the US market in mind. Your market is totally different.


Stephen

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Collin85
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Jul 18, 2008 09:43 |  #4

Thanks for the responses.

sfaust, that was a thoroughly detailed reply, although I must mention that I'm no pro. To be quite honest, I wouldn't think I'd be at a level professional enough to charge upto $1500 for a day's work.

So if I got you correctly, I should be charging at a minimum a 'Time' fee - a fee simply there because I was there to shoot the job, even if they don't end up using any of my images? And this should be something like $1,500 to $2000 etc.?

Then furthermore, I should be charging a 'Usage' fee dependent on what they end up using, right?

Expenses-wise, I probably don't need to charge too much. For my previous shoots, I required no assistants, props etc. Just my camera, lenses and flashes.

My question now is how much should I be charging for my time? I anticipate the answer depends on how quality my output is and how big the restaurant is. Here are a few samples of what I did the last few times. I own minimal lighting equipment.. predominately a few Speedlites and being a student I can't afford expensive strobes, umbrellas etcetera. I'd like to just make do with what I have at the moment.

IMAGE NOT FOUND
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE


IMAGE NOT FOUND
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE


I'm still surprised about the $1500-2000 just for 'Time', but if I can charge anywhere near that for the level of work posted above - that's definitely incentive enough for me to look into this very seriously.

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tcphoto1
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Jul 18, 2008 11:31 |  #5

I do this type of work and the $1500-$2000 is typical. It is vital that you have a paper trail containing the specific usage of the images. If you are not going to charge an appropriate fee then perhaps you should pass on the job.


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sfaust
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Jul 18, 2008 15:58 |  #6

Yes, the images you posted would be fine for a professional at that rate. As long as you can do it day in, day out, without excuses, yes. You would need to be able to do it based on a comp, or verbal descriptions from the client. If they ask for something specific, you need to be able to deliver it. Its one thing to setup a shot without any basis on the final image, and a whole different ball game to match the image exactly to the clients vision. Thats part of what they expect from a working professional.

The first image is right on, and worth the going rate. The second one is only ok, only because the the skin on the Quail looks sickly. A little oil to add some glisten to the skin would make it much more appetizing. Its just too dried out considering the type of dish it is. I think the greenery could also use a little work.


As for rates, a long version answer to a short question follows ;) its just worth saying.


Charging for you time really depends on your overhead, expenses, where you want to be later down the road, etc. A big mistake is to charge less now, with the hope of raising your prices later. You will build a client list of cheaper clients that won't be able to support your professional rates down the road. So when you do raise your rates, or go pro, you'll loose all your clients, or spend all your time servicing the cheaper clients that can't sustain the business, and will be in for a major cash flow issue that could put a business under.

It's important to remember that you are not charging for your time, you are charging for the businesses time. Two totally separate things. Charging for your time could be $50 an hour. But the business needs to change considerably more in order to pay you $50 an hour, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. When you are paying the bills for the company, you should be paid. When you are developing the website, paying the taxes, backing up the archive, write a bid for a new job, you need to be paid for this. This comes out of your salary. The only way the business can afford to pay you for all that time you are not billable to the clients, is to charge considerably more from the client.

This is why consultants get paid much more than an similar employee. They have to cover all their own expenses, phone, cell phone, health insurance, time spent marketing, matching 401K's, workers compensation, retirement, etc. Many times its also a wash for the company, or even a significant savings, because they don't have to absorb those expenses.

If a photographer expects to make a salary of $50K a year, his marketing expenses are $15K a year, overhead another $20K, taxes another $18K, leases, equipment, etc, another $14K, he is at $117K a year to run the business.

If he can secure 75 assignments per year, each a day in length, to recoup the $117K his business needs to survive, he would need to charge $1,560 per day.

If he is just charging for his time, at $50 per hour, it would only be $400 per day.

But to support his business, he needs to charge $195 per hour.

There are many photographers out there that just don't see this, and thus think charging $35, or $50 an hour is good money. But they never add up all the time they spend managing the business, expenses for their website, postage costs, etc, and don't realize they are making less than they could get flipping burgers at McDonalds, and with better benefits!!

So yea, if you go the professional route, you can get $1,500 or more per day, and should. But thats not $200 an hour into your pocket, but more like $45 or $50 in this example.

If a photographer has a large studio, a studio manager, etc, their rate would be even higher, in the $3K or more range. But they are offering additional amenities to the clients for that extra expense. They may shoot the same image, and charge twice the rate. But the client is getting a studio environment as part of the mix, and that comes with increased overhead, and thus increased rates.

If you look at it this way, not only will you charge enough to keep the business alive and grow properly, but you can also justify that rate to clients that don't see the big picture. I find working with corporate clients, they get it. They udnerstand overhead, and usually all I have to mention is that my 'office' is 2,000 square feet, and with all the overhead associated with a space of that size. They are also familiar with paying consultants $200, $300, or more per hour for the same reasons. So they do understand for the most part.


Stephen

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Collin85
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Jul 18, 2008 21:26 |  #7

Thanks for the responses.

Stephen, awesome explaining there. If I did all of this without asking for advice, I'd surely be asking for a pretty low price, simply because I wouldn't be confident in asking for such a high price. And a high price in my books wouldn't have been anywhere near $1500 anyway. :lol: But your point about avoiding building a list of cheaper clients strikes me pretty clear and your analogy concerning overhead and expenses using consultancy was useful also. All in all, I definitely feel more confident in charging a higher price now - and more importantly, I understand why. So I appreciate the help!

Now I checked out your commercial photography site before - you have a diverse lot of great photos in your portfolio. When you first started commercial photography, how did that go? Did you encounter any problems? How do you personally attract clients? When you first started, did you ever fail to deliver on any particular shoots.. or had any dissatisfied customers? :)


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sfaust
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Jul 18, 2008 23:59 |  #8

Collin85 wrote in post #5939286 (external link)
Now I checked out your commercial photography site before - you have a diverse lot of great photos in your portfolio. When you first started commercial photography, how did that go?

Hmmm. Not sure what you are asking.

Collin85 wrote in post #5939286 (external link)
Did you encounter any problems?

The low pricing example and building a client list of clients that expect bargain basement prices was offered based on experience. I have run into that, and it did bite me. I've seen it bite others as well. You learn from experience :)

Collin85 wrote in post #5939286 (external link)
How do you personally attract clients?

I don't use a single method. You really need to test your marketing and advertising strategies and use what has shown to work. I use mailers, e-mail, website, paid advertising, networking, and cold calls. Those work for me.

Collin85 wrote in post #5939286 (external link)
When you first started, did you ever fail to deliver on any particular shoots.. or had any dissatisfied customers?

I only took jobs that I knew I could execute well, so the risk was low. As my experience grew, the types of jobs I could execute expanded, and thus it opened up more possibilities. This doesn't mean they were all safe jobs, as many did stretch my limits. But I knew I could deliver at minimum 'acceptable results' should I run into problems. There were jobs that I wasn't as happy as I felt I should be, but the clients were usually more happy with the results that I was.

The only one I can think of was a client that said he was unhappy with the results of a shoot, and that the images were unusable. I wasn't real happy with the images either, but there were far from unusable. I also had a sneaking suspicion that the images were in fact used (he did have on on his website), and he was trying to get the invoice voided or discounted.

So I offered to void the invoice for him! All he had to do was to sign a waiver stating that he had not used the images in any way shape or form (he did say they were unusable, right?). That he did not give the images to his client. And that after signing the form and my voiding the invoice, he stipulates agreement that any use of the images would be considered willful infringement and he would not contest it. They eventually paid for the shoot in full.

For my own self assignments, I push a bit harder and have had failures. But there is no risk since they are self funded, and designed to push my skills and as a test run for similar projects. So some failures are to be expected. But I do play it safer on client projects to avoid any failures. If I'm not 90% certain I can do the work to the clients satisfaction, I don't bid on the project.

I passed on a sweet $20K+ project for a well known audio manufacturer because it involved building a large living room set in the studio for use in the layout. At the time I didn't have anyone I could turn to for the construction, and had no stylist. It was also due right smack in the middle of a busy time for me. I might have been able to pull it off, but since I wasn't really sure, the risk of a misfire with a potential long term client wasn't worth it. So I passed. It was a hard decision that I went over with my 1st assistant and PA a couple times before passing, but in the end was probably a wise one.


Stephen

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