Fill Flash help Please! shoot on Saturday

Okay! I am about ready to throw my flash in the lake. I own a canon 20d camera and a canon 580 ex II flash and a Tamron F2.8 24-85. I use a stroboframe flash bracket and a canon ettl cord. I am trying to take fill flash photos outdoors keeping the background looking natural not blown out or bat cave like, with the subjects being softly illuminated to reduce harsh shadows. I have tried manual on camera exposing for the background using the camera's meter using ettl on flash. I have tried manual on camera under exposing the background by 1/2 -1 stop flash on ettl. I have tried av mode flash dark subjects underexposed light subjects overexposed. Way too off to fix in photoshop unless I use the pop out diffuser over the flash, which has sometimes rendered good results. Using Gary Fong cloud lightsphere. But nothing is consistant. Pictures look dark and dreary or way too blown out. I have seen pictures posted here that look great using the same equiptment. I don't get it. I am so frustrated. I have changed FEC + and - still not getting the results I would like. I just want natural loooking outdoor photos close up for couples and 8-10 feet away for groups. I dont think that is too much to ask when you pay a few thousand dollars for equiptment. I have tried with light to subjects back. Open bright shade. Somewhat sunny area. I will be taking family pictures outdoors on Saturday and right now I think any point and shoot will render better results than what I am getting. Someone please help. I'm in desperate need of advice. I have read so much over the last few days and have tried the different technniques but am not pleased with the results. I'm at work now and dont have access to any prints to show what I mean, but any advice on troubleshooting I would greatly appreciate and give a try when I get home after work. Helppppppppppppppp!

Have you looked in here?

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=138907

I have found all the answers I've needed about EOS flash stuff.
Hope it helps

Check to see if your shutter is 'stuck' at 1/200. And try High-speed flash?

Hi Denise - sorry to hear about the aggravation. What ISO are you using?

Whenever possible I try to do these types of things in nice, even, pleasant shade. That will give you flattering lighting. If you are running the camera on manual, and using ISO 400, in moderate shade, your manual setting will probably be around 1/125 sec @ about f/8. If you have the flash on AUTO-ETTL, and point it at a midtone, it should splash out enough light for a pleasant fill. This is how I do it.

You can always do the pre-flash test, hold that button, and then fire for real with the shutter. I do a lot of wedding an event work, some outside, and this works pretty well. You can see an example of it here:

http://pearlphoto.blog​spot.com …round-at-landerhaven.html

Hope this helps. - Stu

Read some more of your post Chris - if you are in shade and you expose for the (bright sky, landscape?) background, your people will logically go dark. There can easily be a 3-stop difference if not more in some cases.

If you expose solely for the foreground, and then the back will blow out to an extent, even with the fill flash. I will usually try to find nice even shade, with a background of similar light/dark value.

I don't believe there is anything wrong with your gear. Likely the ETTL is being "confused" by the bright areas and thinking on it's own. We see a lot of similar posts here. It's basically a matter of practice and experience, but you will eventually master the best way to achieve good results. We are just more aware of it with digital, since now WE ARE the lab, with photoshop, etc. Back in the film days, labs would "fix" our myriad exposure sins. - Stu

A thread about Fill Flash. It's easier than you think.

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=322313

Thanks for the advise guys. I am not stuck at the camera's sync speed because my 580EX II has High speed sync. Some of the best results have been with F2.8 at 1/2000 of a second at ISO at 100. I usually shoot at 100 iso for outdoors. Should I crank up my ISO? Will that give me better results. But then I won't be able to get small apetures if needed. Sapearl, Your outdoor shots are beautiful, the kind I dream about. I am suffering from photo fill flash envy right now. May I as what flash you use to get these beautiful results. Do you use a bracket for your flash? Any more info or suggestions are appreciated. I will give FEL a try. It will be a hassel to do that for every shot for a fast paced shoot.

Thank you Denise - very kind of you.

Looking at your settings, to be honest, I've never used high speed synch - still old school/lazy, just using the stuff I understand that gives me consistent results . At 1/2000 you get great OOF background, at IS) 100. I only used ISO 400 as an example since it's been a good shade compromise for me.... although ISO 200 would have been good too; just one top difference.

I am also using the 580ex, on a Newton Camera rotator flash bracket, which raises the flash head maybe another 4" I think. And I do play around a lot with FEC+ and " - " since I'm not always happy with the (chimp) results.

But I also do a lot of test preflashes with the little " * " on the back of my 5D, trying for a middle range light/dark tone, since I don't always have a gray card out. Sometimes if I preflash light colored grass, or a gray drivway that will get me in the ballpark. I shoot everything RAW, so tweak the WB and other global exposure settings in that.

Denise Z wrote in post #5976115
Thanks for the advise guys. I am not stuck at the camera's sync speed because my 580EX II has High speed sync. Some of the best results have been with F2.8 at 1/2000 of a second at ISO at 100. I usually shoot at 100 iso for outdoors. Should I crank up my ISO? Will that give me better results. But then I won't be able to get small apetures if needed. Sapearl, Your outdoor shots are beautiful, the kind I dream about. I am suffering from photo fill flash envy right now. May I as what flash you use to get these beautiful results. Do you use a bracket for your flash? Any more info or suggestions are appreciated. I will give FEL a try. It will be a hassel to do that for every shot for a fast paced shoot.

Sapearl. I'm sorry to botther you but, I just visited your blog your wedding work is great! What is your secret? I would be happy with results 1/2 as good as yours! Okay now for the grand inquisition: Do you have the 580 EX or 580EX II? Do you use the flash on ettl or do you use it in the manual mode. Camera on manual? I can't get over how consistant your flash shots are. Very talanted man. I want to be you! LOL not really. I just want your great results. Wonderful job. Thanks for the advice everyone! I will continue reading and practicing.

You are waaaaaay to kind - I'm blushing now.

The secret is 35+ years of great work, terrible work, satisfying results, totally wretched images, blown exposures, super images..... on other words the whole range of successes and failures. What's that old joke - "how do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice....."

The secret...... hmmmmm.... A good solid initial meter reading. You can do this either with the camera, pointed at a gray card (reflected reading), or you can use a hand held meter in incident mode (with the little white dome engaged) placed at position of the bride, facing back towards the lens position. This tells you how much light is falling on the bride. Works like a charm every time.

Once you get your rock solid ambient light reading, you can splash in a little light, a lot of light with your 580ex, either on AUTO or manual, seasoning to taste with FEC+ or " - ".

When I transitioned from MF film to digital 2 1/2 years ago, this was tough for me. I'd done most stuff manually. Auto ETTL confused the heck out of me.... results were all over the map. Turned out I was overthinking it. Once I fell back on my basic old school understanding of exposure, things started falling into place. The only real wild card though is that sometimes Canon AUTO-ETTL comes up with its own ideas.

Also, outdoors like that I shoot direct straight on flash, no diffusers, just the little lens folded down over the flash head. A lot of people use the Stoffen in these situations which I just don't understand. The stoffen works great when it has nearby walls and ceiling to bounce off. All it does outdoors like that is kill your flash power and drain your batteries. - Stu

Denise Z wrote in post #5976234
Sapearl. I just visited you blog your wedding work is great! What is your secret? I would be happy with results 1/2 as good as yours!

A better background would help a great deal.....

Denise - can you post a sample or two of your challenging shots? I'd be happy to offer suggestions if you don't mind. - Stu

Thank you Sapearl, I will do that as soon as I get back to my home pc where all my pic's are stored. I will be away until next Friday. I was hoping to get this fill flash thing down by tomorrow because I am shooting some pretty important family photos. Important to me anyway. I tried your method of metering on bright grass yesterday and using FEL and I got much better results. I just have a few more questions if you don't mind.

I understand now that my metering in camera for exposure in the canon 20d is metered off the focus point that is activated, then I should press FEL, recompose the shot and shoot. My question is when I meter say a bride and groom or large family group shot, should I be metering off of skin tones and if so on the lightest or darkest skin tones, or between the two? . Some have said they meter off the background, some say the white dress of a bride. Some say use a hand held meter and measure ambient, or I've even heard meter off the sky.

I'm so confused some times I feel like the more I read the less I know. Any suggestions for me? Also once I hit the Fell button and take the shot, If I want the same exposure again just different pose and the lighting and subject hasn't changed, do I need to re meter on skin tones and hit FEL for every shot or can I just hit FEL again pointed toward the ground without hitting the shutter and activating the focus points to continue to lock the prievious exposure then recompose and take the second shot. Or once I set the apeature and shutter and get a good exposure do I just leave well enough alone? I hope I'm making myself clear. Please help I need wisdom. Important family photos tomorrow. Thanking you in advance.

Hi Denise - a little short on time but I'll try to help.

Where to point the camera when doing a group shot or other people: if somebody is wearing gray, green, red or a middle blue, tan.... some sort of "middle value" tone, that is a good bet for a pretty decent exposure that should get you fairly close. Skin tone will work too. It may cause the other stuff to go a little dark, but that's ok - at least you've preserved your face highlights and can always bring up exposure later in PS for the darker suits/dresses.

I don't know how FEL works on the 20D and whether or not you have to do it for every shot. As a matter of course I will do that every few shots when I'm doing my groups, just as a corrector, and things work out well. Hope this little bit helps you Denise. Good luck with the shots this weekend. - Stu

You are a charm. Thank You! thank You! thank you! I will post a few shots when I get back next Friday. You have no Idea how much your kindness in taking time to help has been appreciated. Man your fast at replying! I'd like to carry you around in my pocket tomorrow so I could pull you out when I need info. LOL! Thanks again.