What exactly is a "public" place?

In reading all the articles and posts on photographers' rights I keep seeing that it is okay to shoot in a public place.
But what exactly is a public place?
Anywhere you can walk without having to pay or get permission to enter into?
From what I read a mall is public, but they can ask you to stop taking pictures(you are not breaking the law if you do not stop) and they can ask you to leave(which you are breaking the law if you do not leave).
I'm still unsure as to how they can ask you to leave if it is a public place.

Anyways, I guess the short question is what determines whether a place is public or not?

Broadly, a public place is a place that is not owned by a private entity. So streets, sidewalks, parks, etc. are public.

A mall is NOT a public place necessarily, as it is owned by a private entity. A mall can kick you out if they want, and they can ask you to stop taking pictures. Just like your neighbor can kick you out of his private house if he wants.

Legally speaking the definition of public has become much more complex than the definition I will give you this is from the notes I took for my thesis the definition might have changed some since then.

"Property owned by the government or one of its agencies, divisions, or entities. Commonly a reference to parks, playgrounds, streets, sidewalks, schools, libraries and other property regularly used by the general public."

This is the simple definition of public place. We can get into a more complex definition based on court precedent, but I would consider it irrelevant at the moment.

Bumgardnern wrote in post #6002011
We can get into a more complex definition based on court precedent, but I would consider it irrelevant at the moment.

If you don't mind getting into a more complex definition, and if GM_of_OLC doesn't object to me highjacking his thread, I've often wondered about cases where people are thrown out of a City Hall meeting or some such. What are the limits of the public's access to public places?

I was at a fireworks show a few nights ago down on a local beach, and after the show, the police came through and told people it was time to get moving. The question ran through my mind if they could do that -- no one was causing problems, they weren't camping on the beach, etc., so what was their authority?

(Sorry, not photo related, but just out of curiosity.)

a while ago a cop came to my skewl and was talking to us about drinking and some one asked about public drinking and what was considered public the cop answered that if u can be seen from a public space ..i was considered to be public

so if u were realy determined i guess if u got kicked out of a mall or sumhting u could leagally take pictures though the doors

(this is in australia so the laws may differ from country to counrty)

silverhalide wrote in post #6004597
If you don't mind getting into a more complex definition, and if GM_of_OLC doesn't object to me highjacking his thread, I've often wondered about cases where people are thrown out of a City Hall meeting or some such. What are the limits of the public's access to public places?

I was at a fireworks show a few nights ago down on a local beach, and after the show, the police came through and told people it was time to get moving. The question ran through my mind if they could do that -- no one was causing problems, they weren't camping on the beach, etc., so what was their authority?

(Sorry, not photo related, but just out of curiosity.)

I would think an action like this might fall into the catch all of "For The Public Good."

You are absolutely correct in stating that it's not an unlawful gathering nor is there any public disturbance occuring but the potential for such is probably where the cops would hang their hats...

If you get kicked off mall property you can still take pictures OF the mall FROM the public sidewalk. The mall isn't public property is the reason they can ask you to leave. But they can't ask you to leave public property even if you can still see the mall.

As for people, if they are in the mall, and the mall doesn't ask you to stop, you can take pictures of them because there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. They are out in a mall that anyone can go to, and should expect for other people to see them, including people with cameras. You can't use the images for commercial purpose without their consent, but you can use them for personal use (if you just REALLY need to finish that "people I don't know walking around the mall" series).

IMO any place where the public is expected or invited to go like a mall, sports complex, race track, park ect... whether it be free or a paying place is a public place Even if it's owned by a private person. and most sports complexes are bought with public money. If it's owned by a private person then thy need to post the rules at the door in plain view of the public.

As far at the fireworks question most parks have times that they open and close so if you were there after there closing time they can make you leave.

silverhalide wrote in post #6004597
If you don't mind getting into a more complex definition, and if GM_of_OLC doesn't object to me highjacking his thread, I've often wondered about cases where people are thrown out of a City Hall meeting or some such. What are the limits of the public's access to public places?

I was at a fireworks show a few nights ago down on a local beach, and after the show, the police came through and told people it was time to get moving. The question ran through my mind if they could do that -- no one was causing problems, they weren't camping on the beach, etc., so what was their authority?

(Sorry, not photo related, but just out of curiosity.)

The beach is run by either the city, county, or state and they can set their own limitations & hours. The city beaches by me are closed from 10pm to 5am and the city PD is in charge of enforcing it.

Bumgardnern wrote in post #6002011
Legally speaking the definition of public has become much more complex than the definition I will give you this is from the notes I took for my thesis the definition might have changed some since then.

"Property owned by the government or one of its agencies, divisions, or entities. Commonly a reference to parks, playgrounds, streets, sidewalks, schools, libraries and other property regularly used by the general public."

This is the simple definition of public place. We can get into a more complex definition based on court precedent, but I would consider it irrelevant at the moment.

This just can't be right. Is Area 51 a public space?

shadowcat wrote in post #6005994
IMO any place where the public is expected or invited to go like a mall, sports complex, race track, park ect... whether it be free or a paying place is a public place Even if it's owned by a private person. and most sports complexes are bought with public money. If it's owned by a private person then thy need to post the rules at the door in plain view of the public.

As far at the fireworks question most parks have times that they open and close so if you were there after there closing time they can make you leave.

It may be your opinion, but it isn't the law. By definition, any privately owned property is not a public space.

Roy Mathers wrote in post #6006359
This just can't be right. Is Area 51 a public space?

No, Area 51 is a classified space. To say property owned by CITY and generally STATES (rather than the federal government) are public would be 99% accurate.

So I could walk into any City Hall or State Capitol and take pictures without hindrance?

silverhalide wrote in post #6004597
I was at a fireworks show a few nights ago down on a local beach, and after the show, the police came through and told people it was time to get moving. The question ran through my mind if they could do that -- no one was causing problems, they weren't camping on the beach, etc., so what was their authority?

This could be classified as Loitering...

That depends, Roy, on the local regulations, and where in the city hall or state capitol you are taking pictures. The bathrooms, for example, are usually off-limits.

A public place is often confused with a place that has public access. Many places, such as malls and store, have free public access. That does not make them public places, just places open to the public.

Also, places owned by the public may or may not be public places. Schools are typically owned by the public, but they are not public places. They are regulated public properties, which would perhaps better be thought of as government-owned places. The government, in this case, has the status of a private entity. The fact that you are "part owner" of the government is irrelevant.

Parks, beaches, and, yes, Area 51 fall into the govenment-ownership category. Access is defined by regulation. In the case of a beach, the regulations are simple (and usually obvious), and may include hours of operation, no alcohol, no dogs, etc. In the case of Area 51, the regulations are a bit more strict.

Another way of looking at it. Let's say you own a large block of Microsoft stock. This makes you a part owner of Microsoft. Does this give you leave to freely go where you want and photgraph what you wish on Microsoft's property? Not on your life! Part ownership of an entity does not grant license.

I was reading recently about a case of a conflict of laws. A man was asked to leave a store because he was black. This was made clear in the way he was asked to leave. This is clearly against the law in the U.S.

The man refused to leave, and was arrested for trespassing. As the courts ruled (and I agree), when asked to leave by the owners, his failure to leave constituted trespass. He was fined accordingly. Why he was asked to leave was a different issue entirely, and was irrelevant to the owners right to deny access to his property.

The man did (and properly so) file a discrimination lawsuit against the store owner. He won the lawsuit. The owner had no right (under U.S. law) to ask someone to leave solely because of their race. This is an entirely different issue from property rights.

What it boils down to is, if asked to leave private property by the owner or his representative, you must do so under the law, regardless of why they asked you to leave. If you think they were wrong in asking you to leave, file a lawsuit.

Remember that "Sue" is not only the name of a pretty girl, it is also a verb.