B&W Conversions... how can I make my subject pop out of his/her/its surroundings

OK, so take this photo below for example. It was shot using one of the AI settings. I'm trying to learn how to use them, so try not to pay too much attention to where the camera actually focused. Sun was going down, lens was wide open, blah blah blah.

Below, I'm going to post both the original shot and my B&W conversion. The problem I've found is that the clothes he's wearing and his skin tone match the colors around him too much. And, on top of that, the griptape on the top of his deck matches the asphalt on the road. So, I can't make my brother-in-law really "pop" out of the shot. If I try to make adjustments to his clothing, the grass and dirt around him follow suit, and it's the same with his griptape and the asphalt. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I've seen some absolutely incredible B&W conversions of skaters in Concussion Magazine (though the photos on their site don't do the ones in the magazine justice). I just don't understand how they do it.

Before I ramble any longer, here are the two shots:

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It's all about the lighting.. Looks like most of the shots you linked to used off camera flash. Makes a big difference in the final output. Your shot has very flat lighting, which will make for a dull conversion.

dekalbSTEEL wrote in post #6009317
It's all about the lighting.. Looks like most of the shots you linked to used off camera flash. Makes a big difference in the final output. Your shot has very flat lighting, which will make for a dull conversion.

According to the exif in that photo, the flash didn't fire at all.

Camera: Canon EOS 40D
Focal Length: 35mm
ISO: 400
Shutter Speed: 1/800
Aperture: f/4
Flash: Did not fire

It's entirely ambient light (in this case sunlight) that's lighting that photo.

No, I meant the ones on the Concussion site.....

the background looks sharper then the subject. Did you mis-focus?

You need contrast in order to make B&W really pop.

In your example, his shirt, his shorts, the pavement and the grass are all very similar in tone so it's gonna tend run toward one level of grey when you convert it to B&W...

dekalbSTEEL wrote in post #6009350
No, I meant the ones on the Concussion site.....

I follow ya now. I wish they would put some of the better ones from the mag up on the site, but then they'd never sell magazines.

No offense meant (honestly) to any sports photographers who read this, but the photos I see in Concussion are honestly the best I've ever seen when it comes to B&W sports photos (maybe the majority of sports photos). I like to say this as a way of comparing what I've seen on Concussion with other sports photography... "The guys who tried out for Concussion and didn't make the cut are the guys who work for ESPN and Sports Illustrated." These Concussion photographers are absolutely insane at near perfect composition, timing, pop, B&W Conversion, and much more.

boucha wrote in post #6009355
the background looks sharper then the subject. Did you mis-focus?

Yeah, I actually mentioned that in the original post. For the past four years or so, I've been studying glamour and fashion photography. That was honestly my first real time trying to grab a shot of my brother-in-law while skating. Big difference between models who can hold a pose like a statue for 10 to 15 seconds and a skateboard that's moving very quickly by you. So, that was my first time using the AI Servo/AI Focus on the 40D. I know I've got a lot to learn, and if I had more light, I could have narrowed the aperture a good bit and gotten more of everything in focus. But, as I mentioned, the sun was already starting to go down, the lens was already wide open, and I was shooting at ISO 400.

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #6009369
You need contrast in order to make B&W really pop.

In your example, his shirt, his shorts, the pavement and the grass are all very similar in tone so it's gonna tend run toward one level of grey when you convert it to B&W...

Oh I completely agree. Contrast would have drastically helped. But, here's the issue. I'm not going to always have the luxury of taking photographs of skaters who are wearing clothing that's very contrasty compared to their surroundings.

Someone may be skating an empty pool or bowl one day wearing a grey shirt and dark shorts. Grey shirt would match the bowl/pool almost perfectly once the B&W Conversion was done. His shorts could very well match the tiles around the top of the pool/bowl and his griptape once the B&W Conversion was done.

Having a huge amount of contrast between the background and the subject is definitely something that would make them "pop" much more easily in post processing. But, I guess my question is... what about those times when they match their surroundings pretty well? Still gotta find a way to make them "pop."

FlipsidE wrote in post #6009450
Oh I completely agree. Contrast would have drastically helped. But, here's the issue. I'm not going to always have the luxury of taking photographs of skaters who are wearing clothing that's very contrasty compared to their surroundings.

Someone may be skating an empty pool or bowl one day wearing a grey shirt and dark shorts. Grey shirt would match the bowl/pool almost perfectly once the B&W Conversion was done. His shorts could very well match the tiles around the top of the pool/bowl and his griptape once the B&W Conversion was done.

Having a huge amount of contrast between the background and the subject is definitely something that would make them "pop" much more easily in post processing. But, I guess my question is... what about those times when they match their surroundings pretty well? Still gotta find a way to make them "pop."

Then you need to induce some contrast and as others have pointed out, that comes from ... Lighting!

But of course for the magazines, they're told what to wear, where to ride, when to ride and how many times to repeat it. Art Directors rule in that world...

Just read this:
http://www.cambridgein​colour.com …als/color-black-white.htm

Here's another 2 cents on quality related topic.
To do this in digital on a bayer sensor, you're throwing out 75% of information you've captured. With film, you're getting ALL the quality of film. You just have to have enough light and the color filter in front of the lens.

Here's another blip:
http://en.wikipedia.or​g/wiki/Color_theory

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #6009546
Then you need to induce some contrast and as others have pointed out, that comes from ... Lighting!

But of course for the magazines, they're told what to wear, where to ride, when to ride and how many times to repeat it. Art Directors rule in that world...

Believe it or not, Concussion is a self published mag (EIC publishes it himself)... only comes out quarterly, and their art director decided to leave the magazine a few issues back. I think the EIC is doing everything now (and to the best of my knowledge, he's not a graphic designer of any kind). He probably just learned what he could from the Art Director before the Art Director moved on. The magazine is *mostly* photographs of skaters, but they do have some product reviews, a couple of short interviews, an editorial or two, and maybe some reader Q&A. The reason that all the photos in the magazine are B&W is that color costs too much for this guy to publish the mag in color.

That said, being that it's such a small run operation, I'm doubting that an Art Director has any say in what the skaters wear when they are skating. The EIC himself even once said that he'd go skating over getting the mag to the press on time if he had the choice, so it's definitely extremely laid back.

The EIC and/or the former Art Director may have, at one time, explained how the photos come to be in that magazine. But, if they did, I never got the chance to read that issue. Hence, my take on the whole thing is that it's completely and totally up to the photographers, their skills when the shutter opens, their post processing skills, and nothing else.

Then again, I could be completely wrong. Magazines like Thrasher and The Skateboard Mag (which I believe come out monthly) are in full color, and I'm sure there is at least one Art Director and probably a few Graphic Designers employed by that mag.

FlipsidE wrote in post #6009212

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I know it's not great but is this closer to what you want? I applied a yellow "photo filter" adjustment layer to push down the grass in the background, converted to grayscale and added a 10% contrast layer. The original pic needed some flash and a little better composition (i.e. the power box poking above his shoulders looks like a backpack) and that's part of what is making it harder to get the look you want.

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If you want a black and white image that "pops," you have to start with a color image that "pops." The image you posted just looks like a simple snapshot: when you convert it to black and white, regardless of method, you're going to get a black and white snapshot. You need to use either narrow depth of field or lighting (preferably both) to separate the subject from the background.