Volunteering - can THEY own my copyright?

I was selected onto the volunteer photography team for a festival here in Ireland, which is a major annual weekend event attracting some 250,000+ plus last year.

Volunteer means that I get a t-shirt and a pass and am scheduled with some other photographers according to my area of expertise that I'll fill out on a form. No costs are covered in any way, no money changes hands, I just get to photograph some pretty good gigs.

Here's an extract from their "Things to remember":
- The Festival owns the copyright to the photographs, and unfortunately it isn’t possible to credit the photographers in our publications.
- Photographers can use their photographs but not for commercial use.

There's more in the way of guidelines, stuff I'm familiar with, such as documenting performers names, parents consent & release forms for pics of kids etc - standard fare [Stuff that turns a fun experience into "work"].

But what's your take on their ownership of copyright? Is this an interpretation of "compensation" i.e. t-shirt and pass entitling them to copyright?

Telling me I can't use them for commercial purposes suggests that they may do so if they choose - I've no worries about promotional use for next year's festival etc, but exploring other avenues of raising funds using my pics.

Seems pretty clear to me, I'm not sure what the question is. They're telling you that all your photos will be owned by them, and that you may use them as long as it's not commercial use. In trade, they're giving you a t-shirt. If it's not a deal you want to make, then I'd address that before the festival happens!

Dave

tracknut wrote in post #6144599
Seems pretty clear to me, I'm not sure what the question is. They're telling you that all your photos will be owned by them, and that you may use them as long as it's not commercial use. In trade, they're giving you a t-shirt. If it's not a deal you want to make, then I'd address that before the festival happens!

Dave

That's what I was wondering.

Question is: But what's your take on their ownership of copyright?

Yup, weighing it up but will probably run with it to see how it pans out. Not worked with this crowd before but have worked small festivals before so know it's a lot of work, depending on the detail.

My take is that they're making a grab for your pictures, and giving you very little in return. If it were me, there's no way I would do this. But then again, you're not me, and maybe you've got a soft spot for these folks, you want to help them out, etc, etc.

I have no idea about the law in Ireland, but here in the US, you can certainly write an agreement that states pretty much anything, whether it makes sense, is reasonable, etc. There is a notion that both parties must get something out of the agreement for it to be valid (ie, I give you my car, you give me money is a reasonable contract, but I give you my car, you give me nothing is a contract that may have some trouble standing up to scrutiny), but aside from that, any deal can be made. So while you could debate all sorts of things about who really owns the copyright, etc, the bottom line is that you're giving them the copyright in this case because you made the agreement.

Hope that helps...
Dave

Thanks Dave, that's very succinctly put - appreciated. I'll have a brew over their guidelines to see what else they didn't say (hi res jpgs, but nothing about physical dimensions or compression for example (or even watermarking! )).

tracknut wrote in post #6144713
My take is that they're making a grab for your pictures, and giving you very little in return.

sounds like alot of the so called Photography contests out there.. even ones from big named business are out for pics!!

Stasber-

The Festival can offer these terms to you as a condition of letting you take pictures, but I would certainly refuse. Genuine media photographers would never agree to these conditions. Also, without a written contract that confirms that you agreed to these terms-there is no transfer of ownership. Simply stating that there are rules is not legal confirmation of a binding agreement.

Good Luck-
Scott

If it doesn't say you transfer the 'rights' then you don't. And commercial use as far as I have been told is use to endorse a product or service. Now you could sell the editorially or sell them to the dancers or public (which is not commercial use).

If you don't sign anything that transfers the rights to them - they can't do a damned thing.

I would have no problem giving them rights to use the photos however they want for no charge if it's a volunteer thing for a good cause. I usually do photos for the American Cancer Society for Relay for Life, and I give them photos. I still own the copyright and can use them for whatever I would like though.

sspellman wrote in post #6144813
Stasber-

The Festival can offer these terms to you as a condition of letting you take pictures, but I would certainly refuse. Genuine media photographers would never agree to these conditions. Also, without a written contract that confirms that you agreed to these terms-there is no transfer of ownership. Simply stating that there are rules is not legal confirmation of a binding agreement.

Good Luck-
Scott

This is what's ticking over in my mind at the moment.

Dennis_Hammer wrote in post #6144821
If it doesn't say you transfer the 'rights' then you don't. And commercial use as far as I have been told is use to endorse a product or service. Now you could sell the editorially or sell them to the dancers or public (which is not commercial use).

A good way of putting it Dennis. And the last bit is very interesting indeed as my general (and largely uninformed) understanding of 'commercial' is 'for financial gain' so selling it to the public (e.g. from an online gallery or making postcards for example) would be commerce (even tax-declarable ).

OdiN1701 wrote in post #6145187
If you don't sign anything that transfers the rights to them - they can't do a damned thing.

I would have no problem giving them rights to use the photos however they want for no charge if it's a volunteer thing for a good cause. I usually do photos for the American Cancer Society for Relay for Life, and I give them photos. I still own the copyright and can use them for whatever I would like though.

They can: let's say an artist asks for a souvenir picture of themselves (or their agents asks on their behalf) and it's given to them by the festival office (sure why not, he asked nicely...), who then use it to promote a tour in their country (lots of international artists at the festival, some with a name) or a new album, and I happen to discover it purely by chance a year later when I'm holidaying in that country. He's earning a crust off my picture and I didn't have a say in it.

That's their 'owning my copyright' and not owing me even a heads up to say 'by the way we gave such-and-such a souvenir pic'. They may have not even thought about what the pic might be used for, or if I'd agree to it, even. Far out examples but these are 'what ifs' and plausible concerns.

I also do free stuff for different charitable causes and it's a bit different to a multicultural festival with international artists appearing.

Most likely they're just trying to say something along the lines of 'we'll use them however we like which'll be only to do with the festival and we've no interest in selling or passing them on to anyone else' -- in which case they should say so and give it to me in writing to sign. Still waiting on a reply to my question about signing stuff actually...


I appreciate all the input - thank you

I'm guessing it's a music festival. Does it happen to be sponsored by Heineken Music?

Whether the terms are enforceable is very much a grey area.

Legally a contract doesn't have to be signed to be binding - there are many verbal contracts. Part of the contract with the organisers is that to volunteer you accept the conditions they have laid down.

My advice is to either get proper media accreditation and shoot the festival for a publication and be paid for it or to buy a ticket and enjoy the festival without worrying about photography.

blackshadow wrote in post #6149908
I'm guessing it's a music festival. Does it happen to be sponsored by Heineken Music?

Yes and no . Besides I've heard bad things about Heineken gigs so would have sniffed out a little more. It is organised (organized ) by a county council who can't afford a budget for photography (photography's not that important at all now is it :rolleyes.

blackshadow wrote in post #6149915
Whether the terms are enforceable is very much a grey area.

Legally a contract doesn't have to be signed to be binding - there are many verbal contracts. Part of the contract with the organisers is that to volunteer you accept the conditions they have laid down.

My advice is to either get proper media accreditation and shoot the festival for a publication and be paid for it or to buy a ticket and enjoy the festival without worrying about photography.

That thought also crossed my mind.

Having slept on it, and with the help of you folks (I posted on another forum too) I think I'll go up anyway, enjoy the festival and take pics I want without the pressure of being exploited .

Update: Just spent 30 mins on the phone with the organiser (she's a photographer herself hired by the Festival and on a personal level has the same concerns as me but has to remain neutral for obvious reasons).

The bottom line is that the Festival isn't budging on their terms, which are broad and vague (per my quote in the original post) and is a verbal agreement. It is very unlikely that they would pursue my 'commercial use' and unlikely that they would sell or pass on pics to others (besides press) but the bottom line being their 'owning the copyright' doesn't tell me how the images will or won't (would or wouldn't) be used however likely or unlikely at any point in the future.

In real terms it might not amount to much at all (storm in a tea cup) but I'm not willing to find out. Telling a volunteer they have absolutely nothing to show for a weekend of work and that they're restricted in what they themselves can do with them is a bit harsh. For some it'll be a fun weekend and who cares what happens to their pics, they'll have a great time anyway. It's not for me (besides having a great time :lol.

If question is, can they do it, then answer is, yes sure they can. It's up to you if you let them. If you think t-shirt is worth enough for you to spend day(s) working for them with your own equipment and at your own expenses, then go for it. If you think t-shirt is not worth all that much, then don't go. But based on this what you wrote, if you agree to their terms, you will give them photos and copyright for free... err sorry for t-shirt. And even "promotional use only" is not really something what doesn't bring money.
But as I wrote few times already... I'm not going to try and convince people anymore, that working for free is stupid. Do whatever feels right for you, it's your time, your money and your equipment.

sspellman wrote in post #6144813
Also, without a written contract that confirms that you agreed to these terms-there is no transfer of ownership.

I have no idea how it works on concerts or festivals, but for sport things can be pretty clear sometimes. When you pick up your accreditation, sometimes you have to sign for it. With things I shoot, it's normally just paper with few conditions, like I'm there on my own responsibility etc. But it could be easy to add another clause in there, telling all photos I take belong to them. So you basically don't need special agreement, just paper you sign when picking up accreditation, could be enough for this to be legal.