where's phil?

been reading up before jumping into trying out flash and i've seen a few options for the fill light. Can you recommend the best for young kids? Eg

1. Fill light is flash on camera axis (eg hotshoe or bracket)

2. Fill is a flash opposite side to main at 90 degrees

3. Same as 2 but reflector

I'm sure there are more options

Are there pros and cons for each of these? Eg depending on subject movement or wanting to vary shooting position?

I was wondering because if i use my 580ex as master controller, its convenient to use as fill. But i don't want to start off by learning bad habits, so thought i'd best double-check

What are you shooting (models in studio, weddings, etc), and what lighting gear do you have?

nothing yet. Just starting out and would like to start out on a decent footing.

Most likely my kids as my wife isn't a willing volunteer. Son is 7 so may be static-ish, but daughter is 4 so a moving target

No lighting other than I have a couple of speedlites so was thinking of starting with those and some modifiers.

Flexible and simple for a beginner serious about portraits without going nuts:

ST-E2
430EX or 580EX
one cheap light stand - 6' to 8'
one ~40" umbrella
one umbrella clamp

This is not the 'pro' setup such as pocketwizards, not is it possibly the cheapest approach that would use brand X remote with 3rd party manual flash.

What it is, is easy to use and ETTL compatible. You can shoot on camera direct, bounced and off camera direct or diffuse.

Try shooting the umbrella 45 degrees to the subject and go from there.

Experiment with what you have before you go buying more stuff. Anything white makes a good reflector.

mrklaw wrote in post #6240537
1. Fill light is flash on camera axis (eg hotshoe or bracket)

2. Fill is a flash opposite side to main at 90 degrees

3. Same as 2 but reflector

1: You'll always see quite hard light coming off camera axis. Not too nice, unless done very subtle. I'd rather bounce or use a larger (=softer) light source.
2. No. This will give double shadows, going in 2 directions. I prefer to have the fill on the same side of the camera-subject axis as the main.
3. Works well, no risk for double shadows. Cheap (just use some white styrofoam or cardboard)

thanks. I already have a 580EXII and a 430EX, so I can try with the 430 on a light stand and use the 580 as my master trigger (saves having to buy an STE2). So I can try out option 3 (one main and a reflector) and give option 1 a go too.

You recommend an umbrella rather than a softbox or umbrella box? Just simpler?

Fill light is traditionally non-directional. It can be open shade, light bounced off a ceiling, aimed into a large reflector or bounced off a wall etc.. The idea is to avoid secondary shadows because your main light establishes direction. Placing your fill opposite the main is a no-no, you run the risk of secondary shadows.
If you're photographing young kids try a large source (like a light panel). Kids move a lot and a larger source will be more forgiving while maintaining direction. If you're just starting out then experiment with 1 flash bounced off a wall (main)and the other bounced off the ceiling (fill). Play with adjusting the lighting ratio until you find something you like. It's a very simplified approach but will get you thinking about lighting angles and correct ratios.

sounds good. so if say I had my 580 on camera acting as master trigger, pointed up and slightly forward for fill, then my 430EX on a stand to camera left, pointed roughly 45 degrees towards the left wall, which would then bounce off and create effectively a big light source towards the subject from 45 degrees to their right?

And using the wall should give me a fairly large source which might be more flexible for kids moving around than a softbox which might need more control?


If thats a reasonable way to start off and have a play, then I have all that equipment and can try it for free. Nice

Then when I've done it for a while, I can work out what I want next - eg more control over the main, get the fill off camera etc etc.

staffer wrote in post #6247413
Fill light is traditionally non-directional. It can be open shade, light bounced off a ceiling, aimed into a large reflector or bounced off a wall etc.. The idea is to avoid secondary shadows because your main light establishes direction. Placing your fill opposite the main is a no-no, you run the risk of secondary shadows.

The first part doesn't make sense to me, would you mind going into a little more detail? Fill for me with speedlites is from the camera and is direct, in the studio I do place the fill opposite the main light but what you said makes sense - maybe it should be closer to the camera.

mrklaw... you've got it, have fun

tim...I believe any portrait should have only one distinct light to establish direction, even if you're using 5 lights. The fill light is used to raise the values on the shadow side. It can also raise values on the lit side so watch your ratios. Your fill can also be a speedlight but it shouldn't be a smaller source than your main (fire it through a translucent umbrella for example). When I wrote that fill should be non-directional, I meant to say it shouldn't clearly establish a direction of light in conflict with your main light. You can acheive that in numerous ways, like bouncing it off a ceiling or a wall behind you.
If you're on location in a reception hall you could use the ambient light as your fill and use your speedlight (with gel if needed) bounced off a wall as the main. You will get clear direction from the speedlight (if the ratio is correct) and the ambient light will control the shadow side of your subject(s).

I don't subscribe to hard and fast rules but I do think more than one main light direction in a picture (intentional or not) looks strange.

Let me add that the quality of light is equally important. A small source (like a speedlight) will create specular reflections and sharper shadows that may be in conflict with light coming from a main light using a larger source . Cool shots can be created using all speedlights but there is generally a clear main light direction (even with harsh rim and backlights).
If your subject is lit by a blazing sun you may get away with using on-camera fill, but if you're shooting under overcast conditions and your fill is still on camera, your results may not be optimum. Try using the overcast sky as fill and the flash off-camera as the main. I'll bet the results are much better.

Thanks for your thoughts Staffer