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Thread started 02 Feb 2005 (Wednesday) 03:50
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When 'rules of thumb' are wrong

 
FlyingPete
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Feb 02, 2005 03:50 |  #1

After considerable shooting on my 20D in low light conditions I have concluded that the old rule that you should shoot at least the inverse shutter speed of your focal length (i.e, 200mm = 1/200s or faster, or 1/320s on 1.6 cropped cameras) is wrong. If you really want a sharp image you need to go at least twice as fast as this, any images I have shot handheld like the above lack the sharpness of images with much faster shutter speeds. What is everyone else’s experience with this?

Also the good old shoot a the nearest inverse shutter speed of you ISO at f/16 (i.e, ISO 100, shoot at 1/100s) on a sunny day seems to work very well, I am sure distance will vary depending on latitude and season though.


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Belmondo
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Feb 02, 2005 03:58 |  #2

Don't forget the X factor if you're using a camera other than one with a full-frame sensor. (1Ds)

If you use the 1/focal length rule, the 200 mm lens in your 20D becomes functionally a 320mm lens. This is significant, and your 1/200 sec. is going to be somewhat slow.


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tim
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Feb 02, 2005 04:02 as a reply to  @ Belmondo's post |  #3

belmondo wrote:
Don't forget the X factor if you're using a camera other than one with a full-frame sensor. (1Ds)

If you use the 1/focal length rule, the 200 mm lens in your 20D becomes functionally a 320mm lens. This is significant, and your 1/200 sec. is going to be somewhat slow.

I don't believe this to be, theoretically. The 1.6X is a crop factor, not a magnification factor, so you're just getting a smaller part of the image. On the other hand because you're enlarging it more maybe you need extra sharpness to compensate.

Hmmm. Must try some tests myself some time.


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Andy_T
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Feb 02, 2005 04:02 as a reply to  @ Belmondo's post |  #4

Also, don't forget that some people have more steady hands / better technique than others enabling them to hold slower shutter speeds steady.

I'm afraid that I belong to the 'others' category, so I also go for as fast a shutter speed as possible normally.

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Belmondo
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Feb 02, 2005 04:42 as a reply to  @ tim's post |  #5

tim wrote:
I don't believe this to be, theoretically. The 1.6X is a crop factor, not a magnification factor, so you're just getting a smaller part of the image. On the other hand because you're enlarging it more maybe you need extra sharpness to compensate.

Hmmm. Must try some tests myself some time.

You don't have to. In this case, I'm right. I used to think that it was strictly a matter of focal length, and 200mm lens was still a 200mm lens regardless of sensor size.

But this is where the term 'crop factor' might tend to be a little misleading because what is created on the sensor is a magnification equivalency. Camera shake as seen on a full-frame sensor will be the same as on a 1D (1.3X) or D60/10D/20D (1.6X). BUT that amount of shake stated as a percentage of the sensor size will be magnified by an amount equal to the crop factor. It will be 30% greater on a 1D, and 60% greater on cameras with APS-sized sensors.

I probably haven't explained it well. It is a bit confusing at first, and I must confess to having misunderstood the concept at first myself.

Just try to visualize how equal amounts of camera shake will affect the image on different sensor sizes, and you'll get there.

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tim
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Feb 02, 2005 04:46 |  #6

I'm not sure I understand what you mean - can anyone expand on the idea? I'm an engineer so i'm not afraid of technical terms ;)


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RockOne
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Feb 02, 2005 04:58 |  #7

I'll have a go at explaining what I think is meant here !

Imagine you are going to print a 1D and 20D photo at 12x8. The image using a standard 50mm lens (for example) will show a samller area, which means that it has been magnified relative to the 1D image, and any motion will be magnified with it. If you were to make the image from the 20D the same size as the cropped image from the 1D then the motion blur (given idential shooting conditions) should be equal.
Confused yet ?. I think I am :-) .


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Belmondo
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Feb 02, 2005 05:00 as a reply to  @ tim's post |  #8

Tim:
Since you're an engineer, I have every confidence that you'll figure it out.


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mdr
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Feb 02, 2005 05:51 as a reply to  @ RockOne's post |  #9

I wonder how steady Skippy's paws are for handholding at low speeds :lol: .


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RockOne
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Feb 02, 2005 05:56 |  #10

I wonder how steady Skippy's paws are for handholding at low speeds

Absolutley fantastic. Two legs + tail + tripod - problem solved :-) :-) :-) !


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Feb 02, 2005 06:08 as a reply to  @ tim's post |  #11

tim wrote:
I don't believe this to be, theoretically. The 1.6X is a crop factor, not a magnification factor, so you're just getting a smaller part of the image. On the other hand because you're enlarging it more maybe you need extra sharpness to compensate.

You answered your own question. Since you are enlarging more, any camera shake will become more visible.


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mdr
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Feb 02, 2005 06:15 |  #12

A rule of tumb is just a rule of thumb. It only applies to those who invented it.

In fact if you have steady hands, you'll probably be able to get sharp pics with slower speeds. I can generally half or even quarter the speed based on this rule and still get sharp pics

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.

Remember, there are lots of other factors affecting camera shake.

Shake is highly dependent on how you hold the camera. Both hands on the body with a heavy telephoto lens attached is pretty shaky compared to with the left hand underneath the lens and the right hand on the body. Anyone tried it with their hands the other way round
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?

The actual weight of camera and lens has an impact. The heavier, the more difficult to keep steady, especially when sustaining the same position some time before taking the shot.

A grip with vertical shutter button will improve stability when shooting in portrait format.

How do you press the shutter button? Ever tried taking a shot with a 200mm at 1/125 or 1/60 handheld with and without the self timer. You'll definitely see a difference there.

Apart from shaky hands, body posture and temperature play their part as well. Having a relaxed pose or even leaning against a tree or wall will help steadying anyone. In freezing weather conditions, I'm shaking anyway, irrespective of what I'm doing ;).

If you have altzheimers, you'll need a tripod as well as a zimmer frame :evil:.

If you've taken plenty of pictures, you'll now at what speeds you can handhold while still getting sharp results. If you haven't, get out there and get snapping.

Maybe this is all academic, as Canon's IS lenses don't abide by the rule. In fact, it may be time to dump the Canon and switch to Konica Minolta with it's in-body imaga stabaliser technology.

Marc
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mdr
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Feb 02, 2005 06:15 as a reply to  @ mdr's post |  #13

P.S. Yes, I'm twiddling my thumbs at work...


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mdr
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Feb 02, 2005 06:17 as a reply to  @ RockOne's post |  #14

... and you can always fill the pouch with stones to steady the tripod :lol: .


Marc
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scottbergerphoto
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Feb 02, 2005 06:20 as a reply to  @ mdr's post |  #15

mdr wrote:
If you have altzheimers, you'll need a tripod as well as a zimmer frame :evil:.

That's true but you won't remember you took any pictures!
Scott


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When 'rules of thumb' are wrong
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