Night Football Flash Set-up

BenJohnson wrote in post #10972186
Sure that would result in a much larger angle between the lens and the flash, but the compromise in reach doesn't make much sense for most serious sports shooters

Your right, but you only use the shorter lens to dial in your flash then switch back to your longer lens.

ChrisK10 wrote in post #10972192
Your right, but you only use the shorter lens to dial in your flash then switch back to your longer lens.

Ah, that makes sense. I'll have to try it.

int2str wrote in post #10972180
With this setup, wouldn't it be near impossible to "aim" the flash? I'm sure "close enough" works here since there's beam spread etc. and the usable focal length will not vary by much, but still, given the offset angle, the aim of the flash would be defined by the subject to camera distance.

See attached image as to what I mean...

Wow, a flash is not a laser. There seems to be enough spread with the 580EX set on 105mm to fill a 200mm or 300mm viewfinder so long as it is pointed forward. To me the most important thing is to get it directly over or under the lens to minimize the shadow on the side of the players.
I also aim the flash up just a bit to not have too much light fall on the grass in front of the players.
These are 2 unfinished examples of the small snippets I give to the school for their football team website. Shown here only so you can see the flash shadows but it is not too distracting by being off axis.

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ChunkyDA wrote in post #10974025
Wow, a flash is not a laser. There seems to be enough spread with the 580EX set on 105mm to fill a 200mm or 300mm viewfinder so long as it is pointed forward.

Yeah, the flash only zooms to 105mm, so you have some room for error if you're shooting at 300mm. I just attempted to point mine straight ahead and didn't seem to have any problems. I didn't do anything special to aim it, just eyeballed it.

Here are my shots from my first night out with the new setup:

https://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=10974199

I had a few hiccups with the flash not communicating properly with the body, but overall I liked the shots. I think it is definitely an improvement over ambient. Especially in poorly lit stadiums.

I did a little test tonight and will post more eventually. Here's the setup description for this example looking at flash spread of the 580EXII:
1DmII on tripod, 580EXII on hotshoe, flash zoom set at 105mm, lens= 300mm 2.8
1/250, f2.8, ISO 500 (my game settings)
second camera is 40D handheld touching the 1DmII on the right side, 17mm, 1 second exposure (to give me enough time to fire the 1DmII).
test subject is shirt and pants hanging on flash stand set exactly 1/2 way across the field. 1DmII is on tripod at shooter's line, approx 4' out of bounds.
Orange cones in the stands mark the upper left and right limits of the 300mm. This is so I can judge the difference when the 70-200mm is mounted for additional testing.

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I tried this and just didn't get the results I thought I should have.

Specs for the first shot:
Shooting Mode Manual Exposure
Tv( Shutter Speed ) 1/500
Av( Aperture Value ) 2.8
Metering Mode Spot Metering
ISO Speed 800
Auto ISO Speed OFF
Lens EF70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM
Focal Length 148.0mm
Image Size 5184x3456
Image Quality RAW
Flash On
Flash Type External E-TTL
E-TTL II flash metering Evaluative flash metering
Flash Exposure Compensation +1
Shutter curtain sync 1st-curtain sync
FE lock OFF
White Balance Mode Auto
AF Mode AI Servo AF
AF area select mode Manual selection

Specs for the second shot are all the same except +2 FEC

It looks like the shutter speed is not fast enough, or did I provide way too much camera shake, either way it's way blurry and somewhat overexposed, now I can drop it in post much better than I can bring it up but I don't what to try next?

Do I need to change to second curtain sync?

Now if I meter and get an exposure for ambient and then drop it 2 stops with ISO will that give me the results I'm looking for?

Or is it the high-speed-sync that is limiting the flash duration?

I thought the flash would stop the action (but that is only on second curtain, right?) so if my shutter speed is 1/250 or 1/320 and adjust everything from there to get the results I need?

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ChunkyDA wrote in post #10998242
I did a little test tonight and will post more eventually. Here's the setup description for this example looking at flash spread of the 580EXII:
1DmII on tripod, 580EXII on hotshoe, flash zoom set at 105mm, lens= 300mm 2.8
1/250, f2.8, ISO 500 (my game settings)
second camera is 40D handheld touching the 1DmII on the right side, 17mm, 1 second exposure (to give me enough time to fire the 1DmII).
test subject is shirt and pants hanging on flash stand set exactly 1/2 way across the field. 1DmII is on tripod at shooter's line, approx 4' out of bounds.
Orange cones in the stands mark the upper left and right limits of the 300mm. This is so I can judge the difference when the 70-200mm is mounted for additional testing.

Interesting test. I'd be curious to see the same setup with reduced ambient exposure on the 17mm shot (lower ISO?). That would allow us to see how high the flash coverage is going. As it was shot there, it looks like the flash may be aimed a bit low?

AZAlphaDog wrote in post #10998785
I tried this and just didn't get the results I thought I should have.

Specs for the first shot:
Shooting Mode Manual Exposure
Tv( Shutter Speed ) 1/500
Av( Aperture Value ) 2.8
Metering Mode Spot Metering
ISO Speed 800

Now if I meter and get an exposure for ambient and then drop it 2 stops with ISO will that give me the results I'm looking for?

Or is it the high-speed-sync that is limiting the flash duration?

I thought the flash would stop the action (but that is only on second curtain, right?) so if my shutter speed is 1/250 or 1/320 and adjust everything from there to get the results I need?

The flash will stop the action, but NOT when you use HSS. Set your shutter speed to 1/250s (max sync speed), and then the flash will fire a single burst of light, and stop the action. In HSS the flash fires as a pulse/strobe, which reduced power and requires higher shutter speeds to stop action.

BenJohnson wrote in post #10999361
The flash will stop the action, but NOT when you use HSS. Set your shutter speed to 1/250s (max sync speed), and then the flash will fire a single burst of light, and stop the action. In HSS the flash fires as a pulse/strobe, which reduced power and requires higher shutter speeds to stop action.

Exactly. HSS pulses your speedlite so that it's on a longer time, but at a much reduced range. So instead of a quick pop of flash, it's more like turning on a lightbulb before you take the picture, then turning it off once you're finished taking the picture.

Here's a good article from Canon...
http://www.canon.co.jp …ork/ettl2/high/​index.html

I use HSS for fill light when the sun is setting, you still have plenty of light for exposure, but you're getting harsh shadows. But only when your subject is really close... 10'-20' max. It really drains your batteries and you can easily overheat your flash tube.

So IMHO, don't use Tv=1/500". Stick to M with SS=xsync.

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BenJohnson wrote in post #10999361
Interesting test. I'd be curious to see the same setup with reduced ambient exposure on the 17mm shot (lower ISO?). That would allow us to see how high the flash coverage is going. As it was shot there, it looks like the flash may be aimed a bit low?

Actually you are seeing the inverse square law in action. Flash is mounted as straight as the hot-shoe allows. The reflected light is falling off as the reflective surface gets farther away. Not much light is hitting the bleachers on the far side of the field. That is why distance to subject is important and I don't use a manual flash setting anymore. Too much of a pain to dial it down (or change f-stop) as the action gets closer to the camera. While some photogs do this, I find it a distraction.
In some of my shots with visible grass in the foreground, I dial in a bit of gradient filter in Lightroom to lower the exposure of the grass.

BenJohnson wrote in post #10999361
The flash will stop the action, but NOT when you use HSS. Set your shutter speed to 1/250s (max sync speed), and then the flash will fire a single burst of light, and stop the action. In HSS the flash fires as a pulse/strobe, which reduced power and requires higher shutter speeds to stop action.

Funny, today I got an email from MaxPreps reminding us NOT to use high speed sync, those guys must be stalking my online posts.

So you were the one responsible for that email.

From the looks of the emails that have been coming form Todd lately I'm not the only one struggling with flashed-night-football, but I haven't uploaded any galleries yet because I know they wouldn't pass the quality test.

I really hope I can get it sorted before the season is over (there are only away games for my local team and my secondary has a bi week so no practice this week) bummer for me.

Here are some of mine from last night. FWIW these passed MP.

I've been trying to ride closer to ambient to get some of Danny's nice background balance.

M, SS=xsync, 550EX mounted under, ETTL +1/3...

1.

Clarence those shots look pretty good. I have only taken test shots w/ the flash mounted under and I didn't like the shadows I got. These look good. I dont see any shadows at all except on the last one.

Nice work

The shadows really seem to depend on the background. The bracket I use is a bit cumbersome, but I like avoiding the monster shadows on all of my shots.