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Thread started 22 Sep 2008 (Monday) 09:56
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Leica S2 - impact on Canon?

 
airfrogusmc
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Sep 23, 2008 07:58 as a reply to  @ post 6363623 |  #16

Also the M9 is being worked out as I type :D




  
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deeeez
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Sep 23, 2008 15:12 |  #17

i cant wait to see some samples.. looks great.


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Haibert B.

  
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Double ­ Negative
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Sep 23, 2008 15:14 |  #18

airfrogusmc wrote in post #6363910 (external link)
Also the M9 is being worked out as I type :D

Where'd you hear that?

The S2 won't be out until Summer 2009 and the R10 Spring 2010...


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vkalia
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Sep 24, 2008 16:43 |  #19

Hoff - that's a classic.


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ThomGascoigne
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Sep 24, 2008 21:16 |  #20

Beautiful but I can't see this going for any less then $20,000 USD if not $30k

I don't think it will hurt Sony at all because the people that buy Sony's wouldn't be buying a Leica, I think it could possible hurt very high end photographers from Canon's 1DS MK III and Whatever the top Nikon is.

As nice as a camera this is it still hasn't hit the 44MP range, And when that happens you will see better digital then film photos.

This sure hasn't changed my mind from buying the 5D MK II, At a quarter the price and it does video!


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bbbig
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Sep 25, 2008 06:23 |  #21

ThomGascoigne wrote in post #6375608 (external link)
As nice as a camera this is it still hasn't hit the 44MP range, And when that happens you will see better digital then film photos.

Study has shown, at 16 MP and above, its resolution is equivalent or better than films.


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ThomGascoigne
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Sep 25, 2008 09:20 |  #22

bbbig wrote in post #6377419 (external link)
Study has shown, at 16 MP and above, its resolution is equivalent or better than films.

What! Really? I was told it was 44mp! Have you got any links to these studys at all?


Thanks!


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Double ­ Negative
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Sep 25, 2008 16:44 |  #23

ACROS CMS 20 scanned at 5,000dpi (more if you use Leica/Zeiss glass) would make 16MP look like a P&S (and this from 35mm). Don't kid yourself. Film is still alive and well.


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bbbig
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Sep 25, 2008 19:22 |  #24

ThomGascoigne wrote in post #6378182 (external link)
What! Really? I was told it was 44mp! Have you got any links to these studys at all?


Thanks!

http://clarkvision.com …il/film.vs.digi​tal.1.html (external link)


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bbbig
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Sep 25, 2008 19:23 |  #25

Double Negative wrote in post #6380626 (external link)
ACROS CMS 20 scanned at 5,000dpi (more if you use Leica/Zeiss glass) would make 16MP look like a P&S (and this from 35mm). Don't kid yourself. Film is still alive and well.

Just because you can scan it at a very high resolution, it doesn't mean the source has that much information.

http://clarkvision.com …il/film.vs.digi​tal.1.html (external link)

PS - Take a look at his bio


Roy

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lightsmith101
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Sep 25, 2008 20:44 |  #26

It's a MF crop camera with only one lens. It is in form and function like the Pentax 645 cameras. The Hassleblads come with a choice of 17 lenses and many other accessories and a proven track record with digital. Leica's track record with the M8 is hardly stellar.

Leica knows it cannot compete head to head in the 35mm format with Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. and so is trying to carve out a niche in the fashion and commercial space. I doubt they will succeed.




  
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ImRaptor
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Sep 26, 2008 00:31 |  #27

lightsmith101 wrote in post #6381897 (external link)
It's a MF crop camera with only one lens. It is in form and function like the Pentax 645 cameras. The Hassleblads come with a choice of 17 lenses and many other accessories and a proven track record with digital. Leica's track record with the M8 is hardly stellar.

Leica knows it cannot compete head to head in the 35mm format with Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. and so is trying to carve out a niche in the fashion and commercial space. I doubt they will succeed.

I agree.
Given the results from the M8 and the cost for the body only on this S2 in comparison to the Hassleblad offerings, particularly some of the little more discounted ones as of late, I think Leica is going to have a hard time getting a good foothold at anything past the die hards. Save an absolutely remarkable turn around from their previous digital efforts.


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ThomGascoigne
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Sep 26, 2008 03:26 |  #28

bbbig wrote in post #6381419 (external link)
Just because you can scan it at a very high resolution, it doesn't mean the source has that much information.

http://clarkvision.com …il/film.vs.digi​tal.1.html (external link)

PS - Take a look at his bio

Thanks for that, I don't at all understand the outcome but yeah.


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DrPablo
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Sep 26, 2008 07:47 as a reply to  @ ThomGascoigne's post |  #29

That Clarkvision analysis has some flaws and reflects only the specific testing conditions. He also leaves out some critical bits of information about how the scanning was performed. When you drum scan small format film, you need to be very deliberate about how you manage the aperture of the photomultiplier on the scanner so that you can strike a balance between overresolving grain and getting grain aliasing. Furthermore, you have a choice of bit depths for the scan. Note the difference between 4x5 and 194 megapixel digital on his method page, though -- the 194 megapixel isn't even close to the fine resolution as 4x5.

Here are his overall findings:

From these tests, it is my opinion that digital cameras will match Fujichrome Velvi 35mm film when they reach more than about 10 megapixels. Somewhere in the 12-16 megapixels will produce color image quality comparable to 35 mm film (this is a compromise of more intensity detail and less color detail than film). Somewhat fewer megapixels, approximately 8-10 Mpixels will match 35mm film intensity detail but at below 35mm film color detail.

Medium format film: about 50 digital camera megapixels are need to match Fujichrome Velvia in 6 x 4.5 cm.

Large format: more than 200 digital camera megapixels are need to match 4x5 Fujichrome Velvia film. How much more needs further testing.

http://clarkvision.com …ndetail.html#di​gi2camres2 (external link)

There is no way to directly compare the resolving power of film and digital using a common unit of resolution. If you're using lossy methods of converting film data to digital data (i.e. scanning), then you're already biasing the test against the film. A drum scanner set to 6000 or 12000 dpi is not necessarily going to resolve more detail than one set to 4000 dpi. Even though the true optical resolution of the scan may be 12000 dpi, all you're doing at resolutions like that is averaging film grains. Why? Because film grains are generally 10-25 microns and at 12000 dpi your sample size is around 3 microns or smaller depending on the scanner's aperture. You basically hit the limit of detail resolution at 4000 dpi.

If you REALLY want to compare the resolution of film versus digital, you need to do it in a way that's the least lossy for both media. For film the only option is a contact print. So you shoot a target and make a contact print, then count lines resolved under a magnifying loupe. With digital this is problematic because you'd need to print at capture size to produce a true contact print-equivalent, but most digital printers cannot print at such a high dpi.

Format size has a lot more to do with resolution than most people give it credit for, though. Even if a DSLR sensor resolves twice as much per unit area as a given film emulsion, if the DSLR sensor is 24x36 and the film is 60x70 the DSLR image needs to be magnified twice as much to achieve the same output print. Thus, its resolution requirement is double from the very beginning. Nothing taxes resolution more than enlargement.

Next, you need to put the formal tests aside when you talk about system resolution, because honestly you are lens-limited in almost ALL shooting conditions. Most scenes do not have tiny details with 100% contrast. Most scenes have far lower contrast between small details, and even the best lenses cannot resolve these the way they might a test target (i.e. with high contrast and a uniform distance from the lens). If the lens has aberrations, or it has diffraction, then that further lowers resolution. If you shoot under anything but glaring sunlight, then that further lowers resolution (by lowering scene contrast). If you have the tiniest bit of camera shake then that further lowers resolution. So you're usually delivering only 30-40 lp/mm to your sensor anyway, so it's sort of immaterial whether a 1DsIII or a 35mm with Kodak Gold has more resolution if you're shooting through the same lens under the same conditions. Sure, you might get more pixels out of the 1DsIII, but what's a pixel without information to resolve?

Finally, let's get real here. Most people aren't drum scanning 35mm film. With consumer-level capture devices, 35mm film is going to fall WAY short of its own potential, which means that it will indeed fall short of high end DSLRs. But with larger formats and better scanners the equation changes. In the campus bookstores here there are a few shots of the campus using a Noblex 150 camera, which produces a 50x120mm negative -- and these scenes are enlarged to approx 3x10 FEET and they're ridiculously sharp up close. So a great lens, a great scanner, meticulous technique, and a large negative is what it takes to get the most out of film, and how these comparisons need to be discussed.


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Double ­ Negative
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Sep 26, 2008 08:14 |  #30

lightsmith101 wrote in post #6381897 (external link)
It's a MF crop camera with only one lens. It is in form and function like the Pentax 645 cameras. The Hassleblads come with a choice of 17 lenses and many other accessories and a proven track record with digital. Leica's track record with the M8 is hardly stellar.

Leica knows it cannot compete head to head in the 35mm format with Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. and so is trying to carve out a niche in the fashion and commercial space. I doubt they will succeed.

It's not a crop camera and has a range of nine or ten lenses out of the gate... http://www.s.leica-camera.com/ (external link)

They can't compete with the likes of Nikon, Canon or Sony clearly. They're a small company with limited resources. They do compete in the high-end, where this S2 is clearly aimed. The M8 isn't the best example, I agree - let's hope they get it right with the M9/R10.


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16-35mm f/2.8L, 24-70mm f/2.8L, 70-200mm f/2.8L IS, 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS, Extender EF 1.4x II & 2x II

  
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Leica S2 - impact on Canon?
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