How do you eliminate facial shadows with bounce flash?

I just received my 430ex flash on Wednesday and i've been playing around with it a bit. I've also read all the flash photography tutorials in the flash equipment forum.

Using it, I've realized how nice it is to be able to bounce the flash off the ceiling but i'm wondering how you all go about getting rid of facial shadows under someone's chin or nose. I read about sticking a white index card on the flash to try and deflect some of the light forward and it works okay. but does anyone have another method that maybe works better? I've also read that you don't want to point the flash directly forward, and angling it slightly, it might not be as effective.

here's a shot i was able to get using the index card.

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Using a flash indoors a photographer showed me that by pointing the flash backwards (away) from the subject eliminated shadows on the face. She took three photos with the flash facing the subject, bouncing off the ceiling and away from the subject and the only photo without shadows was the backward facing flash.

You can bounce it off a wall behind you or just use a larger index card. There's quite a few products out there which will give you a larger card surface to reflect more light forwards - you can just use a piece of white cardboard or plastic to give the same effect, though. Experiment!

Move back! One of the best ways to eliminate shadows is to move further away from your subject. This allows the light to be distributed more evenly throughout the room and bounce off more walls before reaching your subject. I use a Stofen indoors with good success as well.

thanks for the comments.

Mike, i bought a Stofen but haven't really used it yet. do you use it while you bounce the flash or just head-on? i guess it would diffuse the light some more...i'll have to try it when i get home.

timrocks311 wrote in post #6487241
thanks for the comments.

Mike, i bought a Stofen but haven't really used it yet. do you use it while you bounce the flash or just head-on? i guess it would diffuse the light some more...i'll have to try it when i get home.

I only use it indoors when I am bouncing the flash. I typically point the flash wither straight up or at the 75 degree mark. The Stofen will help to throw some light forward, while sending the majority of the light up and some more to adjacent side walls.

Try some tests. Take a stuffed animal or something that will cause the same shadow problems you are having. Use the Stofen at varying angles and adjust your distance to the subject to see which you prefer.

Buy a diffusion screen or mini softbox from Lumiquest, problem solved.

In2Photos wrote in post #6486954
Move back! One of the best ways to eliminate shadows is to move further away from your subject. This allows the light to be distributed more evenly throughout the room and bounce off more walls before reaching your subject. I use a Stofen indoors with good success as well.

...actually quite the opposite is true. A light quality on a subject gets harsher (more defined shadows/hard edges) the further away you are. Also the smaller the light source the harsher the shadows as well. So just by backing up, but keeping proper exposure, is going to make your shadows worse, not better. The closer the light source is to your subject (and the larger) the more 'wrap-around' effect you get which softens the shadows. I know this sounds counter intuitive to most people but it is true.

What i think you were getting at is only when bouncing a flash. Then further back would make it better and i agree. Here is why.... given the item you are bouncing off is the same distance to the subject but you move the light further away then that item you are bouncing off of will receive and distribute a wider more diffuse light and therefore soften the shadows. So in effect you are just make the light source bigger. And bigger is softer, given the same distance.

Now if you are moving back and now bouncing off the ceiling instead of being in close and shooting direct, that's another story. But all things equal... more distance equals harsher light/shadows.

Think about it. Given the same angle and proper exposure a light source striking a subject further away will be less able to bounce light back into the shadows because of fall-off from the surfaces it is bouncing off from. Put the light source closer to the subject and the bounced light from the surrounding environment is also closer and more able to bounce light back into the shadows thus softening them. This is why in studio shots you will often see big softboxes and they are placed relatively close to the subject, you get more wrap-around than if they were further away.

Dermit wrote in post #6488733
...actually quite the opposite is true. A light quality on a subject gets harsher (more defined shadows/hard edges) the further away you are. Also the smaller the light source the harsher the shadows as well. So just by backing up, but keeping proper exposure, is going to make your shadows worse, not better. The closer the light source is to your subject (and the larger) the more 'wrap-around' effect you get which softens the shadows. I know this sounds counter intuitive to most people but it is true.

What i think you were getting at is only when bouncing a flash. Then further back would make it better and i agree. Here is why.... given the item you are bouncing off is the same distance to the subject but you move the light further away then that item you are bouncing off of will receive and distribute a wider more diffuse light and therefore soften the shadows. So in effect you are just make the light source bigger. And bigger is softer, given the same distance.

Now if you are moving back and now bouncing off the ceiling instead of being in close and shooting direct, that's another story. But all things equal... more distance equals harsher light/shadows.

Think about it. Given the same angle and proper exposure a light source striking a subject further away will be less able to bounce light back into the shadows because of fall-off from the surfaces it is bouncing off from. Put the light source closer to the subject and the bounced light from the surrounding environment is also closer and more able to bounce light back into the shadows thus softening them. This is why in studio shots you will often see big softboxes and they are placed relatively close to the subject, you get more wrap-around than if they were further away.

Ron, I think you misunderstood my post (and this thread). We are speaking of bouncing the flash indoors which uses the walls and ceiling as the light source for the subject, not direct flash. Moving back from your subject will often times allow more wall behind the photographer to be "visible" to the subject, therefore increasing the apparent size of the light source.

Here is my quote again for good measure.

In2Photos wrote in post #6486954
Move back! One of the best ways to eliminate shadows is to move further away from your subject. This allows the light to be distributed more evenly throughout the room and bounce off more walls before reaching your subject. I use a Stofen indoors with good success as well.

I like bouncing my flash into corners. Specifically where the ceiling and 2 walls meet. Then it reflects the light back in multiple directions. It works well in smaller rooms to reduce shadows. I have not tried it in a large rooms.

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gary fong or joe demb will do the trick.

2112 wrote in post #6488163
Buy a diffusion screen or mini softbox from Lumiquest, problem solved.

+1 for mini soft box. The Westcott is fantastic!

Just Be wrote in post #6495978
+1 for mini soft box. The Westcott is fantastic!

-1 for the mini softbox. I have the Westcott and I found it to be a waste of money.

Point the flash up and lift out the diffuser screen and leave it pointing up so it reflects a some light forward. The manual calls it something like catch light for eyes, or something like that...

ryant35 wrote in post #6497330
Point the flash up and lift out the diffuser screen

Does the 430 have that? Or only the 580?