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Thread started 30 Oct 2008 (Thursday) 18:18
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Contrast detect focusing performance? Superior accuracy?

 
picturecrazy
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Oct 30, 2008 18:18 |  #1

So I was playing around with a Rebel XS I just picked up. Tried out the contrast detect focusing during live view. (Believe it or not, I'm one of the weirdos that use Live view a LOT) Seems pretty neato.

My question is... does it achieve greater accuracy when using CD focusing when zoomed in 10X? My preliminary attempts seem to say yes, but the 10X view is a digital zoom, so really, it shouldn't make a difference in my mind. I'm actually quite amazed at what it can do.

Now a related question... because it totally skips the phase detect AF system and it's reading contrasts right at the sensor level, would this type of focusing totally negate any kind of back/front focusing that a camera or lens might have? My initial thoughts seem to think that yeah, it would totally negate any front/back bias that any lens might have. But I'm no camera engineer. Would anyone have any deep insight into this?


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SF ­ Lights
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Oct 30, 2008 18:24 |  #2
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The digital magnification doesn't make a difference on the focusing. It's simply the LCD magnifying the image, not the AF detectors magnifying it.


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picturecrazy
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Oct 30, 2008 18:59 |  #3

sflights wrote in post #6593984 (external link)
The digital magnification doesn't make a difference on the focusing. It's simply the LCD magnifying the image, not the AF detectors magnifying it.

well, yes, that's exactly what I thought. But actually using it seemed to show otherwise. I was getting better hits while zoomed in. Maybe it's because it reduces the area it checks for contrast when zoomed in so it's easier to really zero in on your target?


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SF ­ Lights
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Oct 30, 2008 21:23 |  #4
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I honestly don't think there was a difference. You probably just thought it was better when zoomed in because you could see your focus point better.


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Steve-R
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Oct 30, 2008 21:28 |  #5

Regarding your second question: Front/back focus is a shortcoming of the phase detect system. So, yes, the CD focusing has the potential to be more accurate (just much, much, slower).


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picturecrazy
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Oct 30, 2008 23:27 |  #6

sflights wrote in post #6595047 (external link)
I honestly don't think there was a difference. You probably just thought it was better when zoomed in because you could see your focus point better.

The way I tried was focusing without zooming, and then after it finished focusing, I'd zoom in 10X and see if it hit the target. Then I'd try focusing while zoomed in 10X. So I'd always make the comparison looking at the 10X image.

I've played with it again, and yes, I do think there is a difference, but probably only because you can zero in exactly on your target... rather than when you are zoomed out, the focus area is so large that it's easier for the system to pick up a contrast that you aren't targeting for focus. That's my guess, anyhow.

Steve-R wrote in post #6595069 (external link)
Regarding your second question: Front/back focus is a shortcoming of the phase detect system. So, yes, the CD focusing has the potential to be more accurate (just much, much, slower).

Yeah, looks like that's the case. I tried it out and it seems to be able to accurately focus my lenses that are off. hmm, pretty neat. I just wish it was faster.


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egordon99
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Oct 31, 2008 06:50 as a reply to  @ picturecrazy's post |  #7

I was bored last night while Photoshop was batching through a bunch of files, so I tried out LiveView and CD AF on my Xsi. First off, manual focus at 10x magnification with LiveView was pretty cool! I've had the 40D for awhile, but never really messed with it. Of course, it's awkward as heck trying to handhold the camera (I had the 17-85 mounted), but I could easily see how this would be cool when on a tripod.

I then tried out the "Quick AF", and after I Google'd how to actually initiate AF (the "-" zoom button), I was utterly suprised/shocked at how SLOW it was! My Canon A510 is faster :) I was using my 17-85 and aiming it a contrasty coffee cup on my desk. Probably took ~5 seconds of hunting back and forth. Switched off LiveView and went the old fashioned Phase-detect, and ZIP.....Immediate focus lock.




  
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adas
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Oct 31, 2008 07:13 |  #8

The <contrast detection> method is more accurate and the <phase detection> method is faster. You choose.


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luant16
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Nov 02, 2008 05:26 |  #9

i wished contrast detection is part of 40D features, but after use my cousin's 450D, i dunt think ill need that. It doesnt do better than it sound on paper IMHO



  
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cdifoto
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Nov 02, 2008 05:29 |  #10

I thought EOS has always been contrast-detect. :confused:


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apersson850
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Nov 02, 2008 06:40 as a reply to  @ cdifoto's post |  #11

Then you were wrong. From the first EOS 650/EOS 620, Canon's EOS line has always used phase-detection autofocus. It's only the most recent models with live view that also support contrast detect AF (like 450D, 50D etc.)


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cdifoto
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Nov 02, 2008 06:55 |  #12

I'd like to see a source on that. Something legitimate, like straight from Canon. Maybe I am wrong but I'd like it to be proven. I always thought the camera looked for contrast to focus, which would (at least to my mind) explain why the red beam of a Speedlite can allow focus in pitch black. And why you can focus on a small white light in an otherwise dark room.

Also, Canon touts its cross-type sensors as being able to detect contrast on both the vertical and horizontal plane, as opposed to the line type only detecting contrast on one plane.


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apersson850
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Nov 02, 2008 10:19 as a reply to  @ cdifoto's post |  #13

All right, if you want to call that contrast, then it's up to you. But everybody else calls it phase-detecting autofocus.
If you check the specifications for older cameras, you'll probably find the reference to TTL-SIR, which stands for Through The Lens Secondary Image Registration, a technology used to create a secondary image of what the lens can see, then measure the phase difference between the two and adjust the optics in order to make it zero. That's phase detect autofocus.

Contrast detect autofocus is done on the image sensor itself, but prior to the cameras with live view, there was no image to focus on before the picture was already taken, and then it was too late.
Besides, you've pretty much prooved this yourself, when you explain the difference between cross-type and linear sensors. Contrast is in all directions , but phase difference has to have a line or edge of some kind to detect, and that line has to be properly oriented in relation to the sensor. So what you wrote implies what I claimed, even if I guess you didn't intend it to?


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AdamLewis
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Nov 02, 2008 10:20 |  #14

cdifoto wrote in post #6607803 (external link)
I'd like to see a source on that. Something legitimate, like straight from Canon. Maybe I am wrong but I'd like it to be proven. I always thought the camera looked for contrast to focus, which would (at least to my mind) explain why the red beam of a Speedlite can allow focus in pitch black. And why you can focus on a small white light in an otherwise dark room.

Also, Canon touts its cross-type sensors as being able to detect contrast on both the vertical and horizontal plane, as opposed to the line type only detecting contrast on one plane.

I think you may just be reading into the word too much. The camera needs contrast to differentiate it from the background and get a distance, but it doesnt judge contrast to achieve focus.

Passive autofocus

Passive AF systems determine correct focus by performing passive analysis of the image that is entering the optical system. They generally do not direct any energy, such as ultrasonic sound or infrared light waves, toward the subject. (However, an autofocus assist beam (external link) of usually infrared light is required when there is not enough light to take passive measurements.) Passive autofocusing can be achieved by phase detection or contrast measurement.

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Phase detection system

Phase detection is achieved by dividing the incoming light into pairs of images and comparing them. SIR TTL passive phase detection (secondary image registration, through the lens (external link)) is often used in film and digital SLR cameras (external link). The system uses a beam splitter (external link) (implemented as a small semi-transparent area of the main reflex mirror, coupled with a small secondary mirror) to direct light to an AF sensor at the bottom of the camera. Two optical prisms (external link) capture the light rays coming from the opposite sides of the lens and divert it to the AF sensor, creating a simple rangefinder (external link) with a base identical to the lens' diameter. The two images are then analysed for similar light intensity patterns (peaks and valleys) and the phase difference is calculated in order to find if the object is in front focus (external link) or back focus (external link) position. This instantly gives the exact direction of focusing and amount of focus ring's movement. Although AF sensors are typically one-dimensional photosensitive strips (only a few pixels high and a few dozen wide), some modern cameras (Canon EOS-1V (external link), Canon EOS-1D (external link), Nikon D2X (external link)) feature Area SIR sensors that are rectangular so as to provide two-dimensional intensity patterns. Cross-type (CT) focus points have a pair of sensors oriented at 90° to one another, although one sensor typically requires a larger aperture to operate than the other. Some cameras (Canon EOS-1V, Canon EOS-1D, Canon EOS 30D (external link)/40D (external link)) ) also have a few 'high precision' focus points with an additional set of prisms and sensors; they are only active with 'fast lenses (external link)' of certain focal ratio (external link). Extended precision comes from the increased diameter of such lenses, so the base of the 'range finder' can be wider.
Contrast measurement is achieved by measuring contrast within a sensor field, through the lens (external link). The intensity difference between adjacent pixels of the sensor naturally increases with correct image focus. The optical system can thereby be adjusted until the maximum contrast is detected. In this method, AF does not involve actual distance measurement at all and is generally slower than phase detection systems, especially when operating under dim light. This is a common method in video cameras (external link) and consumer-level digital cameras (external link) that lack shutters (external link) and reflex mirrors. Some DSLRs (external link) (Olympus E-420 (external link), Panasonic L10 (external link), Nikon D300 in Tripod Mode) use this method when focusing in their live-view (external link) modes.

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Contrast detect focusing performance? Superior accuracy?
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