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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
Thread started 08 Nov 2008 (Saturday) 07:08
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Screwing up my color management...

 
bwolford
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Nov 08, 2008 07:08 |  #1

I create team pictures with a banner at the bottom of the JPG with a specific color setting. I printed the pictures last year and the print matched what I saw on screen. I created and printed a new team picture this year with the same colored banner, but the print does not match what I see on screen. None of them do. This years print matches for the rest of the image, but the banner doesn't. Here are links to the original JPGs used to print the images.

Ignore the fact that my color balance, sharpness, etc was off for the girls last year... I've learned a few things. The banner was created in Photoshop the exact same way.

What can I do to find the change between how I created/saved the JPG this year that changed how the exact same color printed? The images appear identically in browsers, photoshop, etc...

I posted links to the JPGs as they are full resolution. As you can see, they display (the banner) exactly the same... I'm perplexed.

http://thewolfords.com​/BAW_0013.jpg (external link)
http://thewolfords.com​/Level1.jpg (external link)

Different problem...
I'm also having trouble with a different image appearing the same as JPG and PSD in Photoshop, but when I display and print the JPG, the colors are different. In this case I used a template created by someone else that was ADOBE RGB, but converted it to sRGB before I created the JPG.

http://thewolfords.com​/ButtonTemplate_1.jpg (external link)
http://thewolfords.com​/ButtonTemplate_1.psd (external link)

HELP!!! I'm at my wits end.


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Damo77
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Nov 08, 2008 13:53 |  #2

bwolford wrote in post #6646987 (external link)
I printed the pictures last year and the print matched what I saw on screen. I created and printed a new team picture this year with the same colored banner, but the print does not match what I see on screen. None of them do. This years print matches for the rest of the image, but the banner doesn't.

Brice, if the colour space, and the actual RGB values, are the same, then it must be a printing thing. Did you have them printed at the same place? If so, can you find out if their equipment/media/proces​ses have changed in the last twelve months?


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René ­ Damkot
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Nov 08, 2008 14:59 |  #3

The file "ButtonTemplate_1.jpg" does not have an embedded profile. You probably forgot to embed it. Probably also explains the printing difference.

Double check your PS color settings. Including the "profile mismatch" checkboxes.

I agree with Damo on the group image: The banner is identical, so should print identical. The image however has quite a different color balance. Maybe the printer is (auto) correcting the image for skin tones, thus correcting both images different, thus creating a difference in the banner?

On a side note: The group image is 29,7cm x 23,76 cm at 180 dpi. (2105 x 1684 pixels)
Why?

The image is quite a bit smaller then the native resolution (in pixels) of your camera. (3072 x 2048). Yet it doesn't look like that. Heavy crop, or resizing error?


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tim
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Nov 08, 2008 15:01 |  #4

Problem one: you're correct, the images are properly prepared in sRgb. If the prints don't match it's an issue to take up with your lab.

Problem two: the jpg and the psd look identical to me. The jpg has no embedded profile, so I assigned sRgb when I opened it in PS. You haven't really defined the problem you're having with this one.

Edit - Rene said the same them as me, I apparently type slower ;)


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bwolford
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Nov 09, 2008 23:29 |  #5

Damo77 wrote in post #6648532 (external link)
Brice, if the colour space, and the actual RGB values, are the same, then it must be a printing thing. Did you have them printed at the same place? If so, can you find out if their equipment/media/proces​ses have changed in the last twelve months?

The one difference is I submitted this year's print for the team picture with ROES instead of the lab's proprietary process. They tell me they both are processed the same on the back end. I'm still working it with them. Last years print (even with my horrible white balance problem, prints the banner EXACTLY WYSIWYG with what I "see" on my monitor then and now. It's this year's print that's off. I find it interesting that the rest of the image matches perfectly with what I sent them this year, just not the banner... I don't know how one part of the image could be so drastically different and not another...

René Damkot wrote in post #6648798 (external link)
The file "ButtonTemplate_1.jpg" does not have an embedded profile. You probably forgot to embed it. Probably also explains the printing difference.

My workflow hasn't changed, so why would this be the first time I haven't seen a JPG saved from a PSD not match the PSD when displayed side by side? Perhaps the template has settings that are different. I did try an experiment. I created a new PSD and filled parts of the several layers with the exact same colors and saved it as a JPG. Same problem. Not sure how I could have accidentally change a setting when all I did on the original template was change it to sRGB space, copy in layers from other files, and create the fill layers for a color background.

[QUOTE=René Damkot;6648798]Double check your PS color settings. Including the "profile mismatch" checkboxes.[QUOTE] These have not been changed by me. Could the PSD I loaded change these? I don't think they can.

René Damkot wrote in post #6648798 (external link)
On a side note: The group image is 29,7cm x 23,76 cm at 180 dpi. (2105 x 1684 pixels)
Why?

The image is quite a bit smaller then the native resolution (in pixels) of your camera. (3072 x 2048). Yet it doesn't look like that. Heavy crop, or resizing error?

Heavy crop.

tim wrote in post #6648808 (external link)
Problem one: you're correct, the images are properly prepared in sRgb. If the prints don't match it's an issue to take up with your lab.

Working it. If you are interested I can pass along their response when I get it.

tim wrote in post #6648808 (external link)
Problem two: the jpg and the psd look identical to me. The jpg has no embedded profile, so I assigned sRgb when I opened it in PS. You haven't really defined the problem you're having with this one.

The problem is if I look at the JPG outside of PS CS2, the colors are completely different on the same computer (monitor is calibrated). I've never experienced this before. A color #330033 looks fine on my monitor in PS, but when viewed outside of photoshop looks completely different and PRINTS differently. And I've never had this experience in 2 years of using PSE and now 3+ years of PS.

I SINCERELY appreciate the input and ideas.


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tim
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Nov 10, 2008 01:12 |  #6

If you save an image in sRgb and it looks massively different in windows picture viewer your monitor profile could be screwed up. Try the default. Post a link to a high res pic.

I might've said that before, I lose track of threads, and i'm too lazy to scroll up.


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René ­ Damkot
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Nov 10, 2008 09:06 |  #7

bwolford wrote in post #6656573 (external link)
Last years print (even with my horrible white balance problem, prints the banner EXACTLY WYSIWYG with what I "see" on my monitor then and now. It's this year's print that's off. I find it interesting that the rest of the image matches perfectly with what I sent them this year, just not the banner...

Last years image as printed last year, or also printed this year?

bwolford wrote in post #6656573 (external link)
I don't know how one part of the image could be so drastically different and not another...

It can't theoretically. However: In this case it's a pretty intense color, that doesn't appear in huge quantities anywhere else in the image. Might be that makes it more noticeable. Are the purple hair bands of the girl in the right the right color?

bwolford wrote in post #6656573 (external link)
My workflow hasn't changed, so why would this be the first time I haven't seen a JPG saved from a PSD not match the PSD when displayed side by side?

Dunno. Something else changed? Monitor calibration, new monitor perhaps?
A different monitor profile would give a different difference between color managed and not color managed applications.
Also, like I said; the one jpg doesn't have an embedded profile. That would make a difference for certain applications.

bwolford wrote in post #6656573 (external link)
Perhaps the template has settings that are different. I did try an experiment. I created a new PSD and filled parts of the several layers with the exact same colors and saved it as a JPG. Same problem.

What exactly is the problem?
A non color managed application will always show an image different then a color managed one.
The jpg and PSD should display (and print) identical from PS.

bwolford wrote in post #6656573 (external link)
Not sure how I could have accidentally change a setting when all I did on the original template was change it to sRGB space, copy in layers from other files, and create the fill layers for a color background.

Me neither, so the only thing I can find is the missing profile on the jpg.

bwolford wrote in post #6656573 (external link)
These have not been changed by me. Could the PSD I loaded change these? I don't think they can.

No.

bwolford wrote in post #6656573 (external link)
Working it. If you are interested I can pass along their response when I get it.

I would be interested

bwolford wrote in post #6656573 (external link)
The problem is if I look at the JPG outside of PS CS2, the colors are completely different on the same computer (monitor is calibrated).

That's logical. You're seeing the difference between sRGB and your monitor profile. (Assuming you are referring to a non color managed application when you say "outside of PSCS2). Otherwise: Tim's suggestion of a corrupted monitor profile might be a good one.
Wouldn't explain the difference in the two group images though.

bwolford wrote in post #6656573 (external link)
I've never experienced this before.

Did you have a calibrated monitor last year?

bwolford wrote in post #6656573 (external link)
A color #330033 looks fine on my monitor in PS, but when viewed outside of photoshop looks completely different and PRINTS differently.

Why would you want to print from a non colormanaged application???


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
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bwolford
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Nov 10, 2008 13:09 |  #8

tim wrote in post #6657021 (external link)
If you save an image in sRgb and it looks massively different in windows picture viewer your monitor profile could be screwed up. Try the default. Post a link to a high res pic.

I might've said that before, I lose track of threads, and i'm too lazy to scroll up.

The mouse is sooooo heavy. :)

The banned on these look the same, but print differently BAW_0013 (http://thewolfords.com​/BAW_0013.jpg (external link)) was printed last year, Level1 was printed this year. http://thewolfords.com​/Level1.jpg (external link)

This PSD http://thewolfords.com​/ButtonTemplate_1.psd (external link) file looks ine, but when saved as jpg it looks completely different in Windows View. The JPG looks like the PSD in Photoshop, but outside of PS CS2 it's differen. http://thewolfords.com​/ButtonTemplate_1.jpg (external link).

I just loaded both the PSD and JPG in PSCS2 and all is well. Different every where else. So I select Proof Colors in PSCS2 for the jpg and the colors shifted marginally, but still were almost equal to the PSD image.

Brice


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bwolford
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Nov 10, 2008 13:25 |  #9

René Damkot wrote in post #6658502 (external link)
Last years image as printed last year, or also printed this year?

As printed last year.

René Damkot wrote in post #6658502 (external link)
It can't theoretically. However: In this case it's a pretty intense color, that doesn't appear in huge quantities anywhere else in the image. Might be that makes it more noticeable. Are the purple hair bands of the girl in the right the right color?


I assume you mean in the first pair. Yes, all is well in that regard.

René Damkot wrote in post #6658502 (external link)
Dunno. Something else changed? Monitor calibration, new monitor perhaps? A different monitor profile would give a different difference between color managed and not color managed applications.

Also, like I said; the one jpg doesn't have an embedded profile. That would make a difference for certain applications.

I've been using the same calibration tool without change to the monitor profile since day 1.

René Damkot wrote in post #6658502 (external link)
What exactly is the problem?
A non color managed application will always show an image different then a color managed one.
The jpg and PSD should display (and print) identical from PS.


They do look identical in PSCS2, but outside of PS the colors are different. And the print is different. I saved the image to a JPG with the profile and same thing.

René Damkot wrote in post #6658502 (external link)
Did you have a calibrated monitor last year?

Unchanged from last year. Same calibration tool, run weekly to ensure all is well. The image was not color balanced last year because even with PS and a calibration tool I couldn't save the image any more than i did (that's how bad it was), but the banner was created in PS so no "saving" necessary.

René Damkot wrote in post #6658502 (external link)
Why would you want to print from a non colormanaged application???

My lab has me send JPGs for printing. I'm fairly confident that when I save from PSCS2 to JPG with or without the profile, they still run their printer color managed. Not sure why you think I printed from a non-color managed application. I only print from photoshop.


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René ­ Damkot
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Nov 11, 2008 06:13 |  #10

bwolford wrote in post #6659954 (external link)
As printed last year.

Try having one printed again, and compare again. Maybe the printer changed something.

bwolford wrote in post #6659954 (external link)
I assume you mean in the first pair. Yes, all is well in that regard.

I refer to the girl with the purple band in the hair, in the group image with black clothing.
If the purple banner is off, I'd expect the purple hair band to be off as well.

bwolford wrote in post #6659954 (external link)
I've been using the same calibration tool without change to the monitor profile since day 1.

If we disregard the option that your last calibration went wrong, then all could be regarded "constant" there then.

bwolford wrote in post #6659954 (external link)
They do look identical in PSCS2, but outside of PS the colors are different.

So, to clarify: The psd and jpg look identical in PS, but they look different from each other in other software? (What software?)
The fact that they look different from when opened in PS is normal I'd say. However psd and jpg should look the same in other software. (assuming sRGB .psd file)
I'd presume that software isn't color managed, since embedding the profile didn't make a difference.
In PS you should at least get a notification when you open an image without embedded profile. If you don't then you've set up the color settings wrong there IMO.

If your default working space is sRGB, the images should still look identical in PS however.

bwolford wrote in post #6659954 (external link)
And the print is different. I saved the image to a JPG with the profile and same thing.

From what software did you print (or have printed)? You printed psd and jpg, and got two different prints?

You said the images looked the same in PS. I assume they print the same from PS as well?

You printed psd and jpg, and got two different prints?

bwolford wrote in post #6659954 (external link)
but the banner was created in PS so no "saving" necessary.

Not sure I understand what you're referring to here?

bwolford wrote in post #6659954 (external link)
My lab has me send JPGs for printing. I'm fairly confident that when I save from PSCS2 to JPG with or without the profile, they still run their printer color managed. Not sure why you think I printed from a non-color managed application. I only print from photoshop.

Since you mentioned that images looked different and printed different, yet you also said the images looked identical in PS. So I assume that you didn't print from PS.
If the images look the same in PS, they print the same from PS, if all settings are equal.

IMO the printer cannot "run a printer color managed" if he get's a file without embedded profile, unless he knows what that profile is...


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Nov 11, 2008 07:11 |  #11

[QUOTE=René Damkot;6664477]I refer to the girl with the purple band in the hair, in the group image with black clothing.[/group]
The purple ribbon is fine. That's what's odd, the image portion of the composite look identical, the banner is the only difference.

[QUOTE=René Damkot;6664477]So, to clarify: The psd and jpg look identical in PS, but they look different from each other in other software? (What software?)[/group]
My bad explanation. While they look the same in PS, if I view the JPG out of PS, like in a browser, it looks different. I wouldn't know where else to open the PSD file from photoshop. If I switch on proof colors in PS, there is a slight variation, but it's still quite different than outside of PS.

How do you determine if the profile is embedded?


[QUOTE=René Damkot;6664477]From what software did you print (or have printed)? You printed psd and jpg, and got two different prints?[/group]
I compared a print from Photoshop to the saved jpg that was sent to a lab that requests images in sRGB.

I'm curious, does the attached image appear to have the profile embedded to you?


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Nov 11, 2008 07:33 |  #12

No.

I DLed the image, and opened in PSCS2.
Got this first:

IMAGE: http://img.skitch.com/20081111-ecinxyggiwsebkq4m5q3dryy41.jpg
.

There are a few places in PS where you can check the icc profile:
If I assign sRGB, it opens like this.

IMAGE: http://img.skitch.com/20081111-xxybr7ch777b9kyuhygbsdnkdj.jpg

I suspect that the missing profile in the jpg causes the image to look different in color managed applications. If you'd set AdobeRGB as default workspace, and not tick the "missing profile" warning, your image would look totally diferent.

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René ­ Damkot
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Nov 11, 2008 07:51 |  #13

Oh, the above screenshot is not color managed, so not color accurate.
The ones below are, and are sRGB.

First the cause of (part of) these troubles: The unticked tickbox.
This would at least give you a good warning in PS.


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Then I opened the image without embedded profiles twice. The only thing I altered was the default working space.


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Normally, with the proper tickboxes ticked, and an embedded profile, you won't run into these kind of problems with PS.

PS assumes default working space. FF3 assumes sRGB. No idea how other applications handle a missing profile... Safari for instance assumes monitor profile. Might be other applications are equally stupid.

Make sure you embed the profile when saving.

On the difference between the group shots: I can only assume that during the year, the printer changed something, or does some color correction.

Have the 2007 image printed again, see if it looks the same as a 2008 image.
Should print the same.

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PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
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Nov 11, 2008 07:57 |  #14

bwolford wrote in post #6664669 (external link)
I compared a print from Photoshop to the saved jpg that was sent to a lab that requests images in sRGB.

Totally different prints, with different settings.
Hard to say which is right.

In an ideal world, an image printed on an inkjet should look the same as the image on screen as well as an image printed at Mpix for instance.

However, cannot change the laws of physics, so the medium also plays a roll. Color management can get you close, but some colors simply cannot be printed by some printers...


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PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
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