5d mark II strange black dots?

I think that unless you need to provide RAW files to a publisher this issue isn't huge.

The photoshop action to get rid of the dots works well enough for now and Canon seem to be working on a fix.

That said, there being a shortage of Cameras now... and the fact I want to buy one ASAP.

Everyone shouldn't buy a 5Dmkii until this issue is finalised. 8)

datadump wrote in post #6922604
.... but the more i see "samples" of the black dot phenomenon, the more i think this is just a pixel-peepers whine fest and it is becoming ridiculous.....

... and as one would expect of a cheap "whine", it's more like sour grapes.

I once managed test environments for a large company that did a great amount of in-house software development. The balance between a philosophy of "zero defects" and actually getting a product out of the door is more delicate than you seem to think.

And make no mistake about it: If products never get out the door, nobody gets paid.

There are always known defects in any complex software (much less a device combining software and hardware). Some of these will be purely cosmetic--such as a menu item in green that was supposed to be yellow. Some will be a matter of an intended specification not quite reached. Some defects will be showstoppers--the device won't go out the door until they're fixed.

But others will be in the middle ground of being so insignificant that no more than a very tiny proportion of customers will care (and every company does have that figured out), or a minor problem that can be fixed in an upgrade. They have to make a choice, and the choices aren't easy.

Then there are unknown defects. As I said, I ran test environments, and the truth is that real-world environments are infinite, but a company can only have a very finite number of test environments. Moreover, a company can only have a finite number of testers and test cases.

I suspect Canon's final user test cases run something like, "Set up camera under such-and-such conditions. Produce a 16x20 print to such-and-such specifications and examine the print at reading distance." (I could bet you big money the user testing does not involve 400% examination of every test image.)

They can't possibly duplicate all the conditions of thousands of customers around the world.

RDKirk wrote in post #6923838
I once managed test environments for a large company that did a great amount of in-house software development. The balance between a philosophy of "zero defects" and actually getting a product out of the door is more delicate than you seem to think.

And make no mistake about it: If products never get out the door, nobody gets paid.

There are always known defects in any complex software (much less a device combining software and hardware). Some of these will be purely cosmetic--such as a menu item in green that was supposed to be yellow. Some will be a matter of an intended specification not quite reached. Some defects will be showstoppers--the device won't go out the door until they're fixed.

But others will be in the middle ground of being so insignificant that no more than a very tiny proportion of customers will care (and every company does have that figured out), or a minor problem that can be fixed in an upgrade. They have to make a choice, and the choices aren't easy.

Then there are unknown defects. As I said, I ran test environments, and the truth is that real-world environments are infinite, but a company can only have a very finite number of test environments. Moreover, a company can only have a finite number of testers and test cases.

I suspect Canon's final user test cases run something like, "Set up camera under such-and-such conditions. Produce a 16x20 print to such-and-such specifications and examine the print at reading distance." (I could bet you big money the user testing does not involve 400% examination of every test image.)

They can't possibly duplicate all the conditions of thousands of customers around the world.

Having been an engineer for a very large company for thirty years and interfacing with all aspects of design, development, and production, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment and summary of how the real world works. There has probably never been nor ever will be a truly complex system that had everything perfect at any time during its life cycle, let alone at product release. There is a saying in business that it is "time to shoot the engineer" when the business decision is made that the product is ready to be released. You have to be an engineer to fully appreciate all of the implications of that statement, but most people can get the gist of what that means.

There have been some comments in this thread that the black dot anomoly is an indication that Canon has a Quality Assurance problem which is a good indicator that they do not really understand what Quality Assurance is about. A company can release a crappy product and have an excellent quality assurance program. QA is not an indicator of how well a product will work nor how long it will last. QA is a manufacturing support function that, in essence, ensures that a product is being "built to print".

And...

got my camera Friday, have filled up about 20 gig worth of shots and a little video to boot, have not been able to produce the coveted black dots despite my constant pursuit of Christmas lights and point lights in high contrast situations. I'm not saying my camera doesn't have the issue, but I am saying that it seems I'd really have to go out of my way to see it and I <3 the IQ, speed, and AF. From my simplistic observations, AF seems to be good to about ISO 3200 F1.4 1/50.. at 6400 it is getting dark and starts hunting more.

@ jro: if it's too dark it's going to hunt. That's life.

@ john: yep it's getting a bit:

tonylong wrote in post #6923123
Hey you two, stop your whining and spending time on such a useless thread and go out and take some pictures, will ya?

Amen to that! The most humorous part of this thread are the people who complain about the thread - by making a post in the thread!

If you have something to add or comment about the subject of the thread, please do so. However, if your complaints, whining, and posting is about the thread itself, or the people in the thread and their opinions, there's a very, very easy solution for you.

Unsubscribe from the thread and stop reading it! Simple, huh?

^^ Just saw your stealthy ninja video. Rofl, good s***

john-in-japan wrote in post #6924684
And...

You've made the "beating a dead horse" reference not once, but twice, John. I personally find the thread useful. If you do not, there's no reason to make comments that are not productive or within the subject content of the thread when there is a much easier solution for you: unsubscribe from the thread and stop reading it. Simple.

bill boehme wrote in post #6924558
Having been an engineer for a very large company for thirty years and interfacing with all aspects of design, development, and production, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment and summary of how the real world works. There has probably never been nor ever will be a truly complex system that had everything perfect at any time during its life cycle, let alone at product release. There is a saying in business that it is "time to shoot the engineer" when the business decision is made that the product is ready to be released. You have to be an engineer to fully appreciate all of the implications of that statement, but most people can get the gist of what that means.

There have been some comments in this thread that the black dot anomoly is an indication that Canon has a Quality Assurance problem which is a good indicator that they do not really understand what Quality Assurance is about. A company can release a crappy product and have an excellent quality assurance program. QA is not an indicator of how well a product will work nor how long it will last. QA is a manufacturing support function that, in essence, ensures that a product is being "built to print".

Bill I think your take on QA is correct from an American perspective; but I think most Japanese corporations have a different philosophy when it comes to quality. Kai Zen is a concept rooted in Japanese history and culture meaning continuous improvement. The Japanese invented the "Quality Circle", a cross discipline tiger-team focused on quality of the end product. I believe if Canon admits defects in the 5D II, a sense of corporate pride will compel them to take steps to correct not only the defects in the 5D II but also the defects in its quality assurance programs. I doubt that they will issue a recall; although that might be necessary to fix the problem. They will most likely make the BlackSpots just "disappear" at 100% crop with firmware. I'd be happy with that if there were no other negative consequences.

I see no issue with a Firmware fix as long as it does not negatively impact other areas. Personally I do see this as a firmware issue so why not.

SwingBopper wrote in post #6925908
Bill I think your take on QA is correct from an American perspective; but I think most Japanese corporations have a different philosophy when it comes to quality. Kai Zen is a concept rooted in Japanese history and culture meaning continuous improvement. The Japanese invented the "Quality Circle", a cross discipline tiger-team focused on quality of the end product. I believe if Canon admits defects in the 5D II, a sense of corporate pride will compel them to take steps to correct not only the defects in the 5D II but also the defects in its quality assurance programs. I doubt that they will issue a recall; although that might be necessary to fix the problem. They will most likely make the BlackSpots just "disappear" at 100% crop with firmware. I'd be happy with that if there were no other negative consequences.

I am quite familiar with Kai Zen, although we spell it as a single word, kaizen. While kaizen does embody quality, it is not specifically a quality concept. It is a total involvement of of all design, development, manufacturing, and support functions for the purpose of optimal design and discovering and correcting problems at the earliest stage possible. In actuality, kaizen is nothing new -- it is a commonsense approach to doing just about any kind of manufacturing and in its essential form has been around under various guises for a very long time. The one thing that does make it appealing is that unlike prior approaches, it actually formalizes many practices that have been the modus operandi of many companies for a very long time.

The point that I was hoping to make in my previous post (and apparently did not succeed) is that once a product design is finalized and manufacturing begins, the support function that the quality organization provides to manufacturing is to ensure that the product is being built to the requirements of the engineering design documentation. This doesn't mean that quality stops talking to engineering at this point. The QA people that I have worked with have always been especially beneficial in that they were very vigilant about identifying potential problems in the design or manufacturing process of a product. But, there is a big difference between that and a situation in which a QA person or an engineer wants to enhance a design that is already in manufacturing to include new features or to perform an existing function in a different manner, etc. While that thought is often laudible, it is not a total team involvement decision that considers all aspects in proper perspective.

Wow, I didn't post over the Christmas long weekend, so I thought this thread would be 100 pages long by now. But it hasn't moved! I guess everyone was out taking photos of Christmas lights with their 5Dmkii's to test the black dots.

I guess there has been no further word from Canon on the subject...

Stealthy Ninja wrote in post #6960177
Wow, I didn't post over the Christmas long weekend, so I thought this thread would be 100 pages long by now. But it hasn't moved! I guess everyone was out taking photos of Christmas lights with their 5Dmkii's to test the black dots.

I think they're busy photoshopping all of the dots out of their pics. We're not likely to hear from 5D2 users any time soon.