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FORUMS Photo Sharing & Visual Enjoyment Sports 
Thread started 07 Dec 2008 (Sunday) 17:53
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In a well-lit gym, HSS ...

 
40Dude6aedyk
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Dec 07, 2008 17:53 |  #1

Alright, I've had my wrists slapped a couple of times by bringing up high speed sync, but I'm gonna keep experimenting because it costs me nothing to do so.

If one can use ISO 1600, SS 1/500th and f/2.8 without flash, then why not try HSS to either reduce ISO 1600 to 800, SS to 1/1000th or aperature to f/3.2? It seems to me that any extra light thrown on the subject is worthwhile.

Here are a couple of HSS-flash photos from a 7th-grade game last week bounced off the ceiling in the darkest venue that I have been in this season:

#1 Rebound after boxing out

IMAGE: http://twsp.zenfolio.com/img/v5/p815983272-4.jpg

#2 You can't block my shot if you are laying on the floor down there.
IMAGE: http://twsp.zenfolio.com/img/v6/p970668711-4.jpg


It seems to me that one doesn't need to be a purist to get something that might work.

OK, flame me, I'm ready for it!

Canon 40D; Canon 70-200 mm f/2.8L IS, 17-55mm f/2.8 IS, 85 mm f/1.8; 580EX II; Sigma EF-530 DG Super; CyberSyncs

  
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MDJAK
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Dec 07, 2008 18:39 |  #2

why would anyone flame you for those excellent shots. Would you mind explaining further exactly your method. Did you bounce your flash off the ceiling? Straight up? Tilted slightly? Thanks.

mark




  
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40Dude6aedyk
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Dec 07, 2008 19:07 as a reply to  @ MDJAK's post |  #3

580EX II flash set on manual 1/1, HSS on, flash-zoom set manually to 105 mm, pointed slightly ahead of straight up (say at a spot on the ceiling one-third of the distance between my position and court center-line. Sometimes with the catchlight white card extended about halfway.

In the second photo you can see a faint shadow of the ball+arm on the side backboard ... I attribute this to the reflection of light from the white plastic catchlight.

Thanks very much for the "excellent" comment. I'm still working on getting this better.


Canon 40D; Canon 70-200 mm f/2.8L IS, 17-55mm f/2.8 IS, 85 mm f/1.8; 580EX II; Sigma EF-530 DG Super; CyberSyncs

  
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dshankar
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Dec 07, 2008 19:18 |  #4

I've been bouncing several Canon flashes in a high school gym for awhile and I've been getting good, well-lit results but your two pictures show the ONE downfall of using these strobes:
Ghosting.

At full power, the Canon flash has a very long flash duration of about 1/433 - 1/900. Doesn't stop the ball or hands very well.

That's why I use 3-4 flashes at 1/8th power - I get a faster flash duration and better overall coverage.




  
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pickle1
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Dec 07, 2008 19:58 |  #5

dshankar

Actually the flash duration for the 580 is around 1/1000 at full power. I measured it by using a photodiode and scope to test the flash duration of the strobe. I tested each power setting 10 times.

I believe in the above photographs the blurring of the hands are from actual movement of the player. HSS is something that can be used for various shots and I believe the OP is working on his individual style that he may find unique and challenging.

Keep up the good work 40dude and maybe try to get an additional light to compliment what you all ready have!

Oh, and keep us posted--looking promising


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dshankar
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Dec 07, 2008 20:01 |  #6

pickle1 wrote in post #6833016 (external link)
dshankar

Actually the flash duration for the 580 is around 1/1000 at full power. I measured it by using a photodiode and scope to test the flash duration of the strobe. I tested each power setting 10 times.

I believe in the above photographs the blurring of the hands are from actual movement of the player. HSS is something that can be used for various shots and I believe the OP is working on his individual style that he may find unique and challenging.

Keep up the good work 40dude and maybe try to get an additional light to compliment what you all ready have!

Oh, and keep us posted--looking promising

Flash duration might be 1/1000 but what matters is the "stopping power" of the flash which depends on both the flash duration and the distance from the strobe to the player.

For me, distance is about 30-40 feet after being bounced (estimated). That, along with a slow flash duration *seems* to cause ghosting but I'm not sure!




  
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tjketa
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Dec 07, 2008 20:27 |  #7
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40Dude6aedyk wrote in post #6832715 (external link)
580EX II flash set on manual 1/1, HSS on, flash-zoom set manually to 105 mm, pointed slightly ahead of straight up (say at a spot on the ceiling one-third of the distance between my position and court center-line. Sometimes with the catchlight white card extended about halfway.

In the second photo you can see a faint shadow of the ball+arm on the side backboard ... I attribute this to the reflection of light from the white plastic catchlight.

Thanks very much for the "excellent" comment. I'm still working on getting this better.

Nice shots but out of curiosity, why do you still have your ISO at 1600? To me it seems to defeat the purpose of using the flash if the ISO is still high. Thanks.

Tom


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jbgeach
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Dec 07, 2008 22:27 as a reply to  @ tjketa's post |  #8

The Flash duration is extended in HSS mode. It lights for the duration of the exposure. Basically in HSS mode it works like studio lighting for a very brief moment. Anyway, this decreases its range, but allows any synch speed you want.


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40Dude6aedyk
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Dec 07, 2008 22:37 |  #9

tjketa wrote in post #6833207 (external link)
Nice shots but out of curiosity, why do you still have your ISO at 1600? To me it seems to defeat the purpose of using the flash if the ISO is still high. Thanks.

Tom

ISO 1600 is needed to get a decent exposure in this gym with a SS of 1/400th sec and HSS. The 1/400th exposure time contributes to ghosting. Without flash, no chance of a good exposure.

I could've done other things: ISO 800 without HSS (but still flash) and SS 1/250th which gives more ghosting. There is no way the 580EX II will produce enough light to be 3 stops over ambient and avoid ghosting.

In any event, I'll start collecting extra flash hardware and see what it leads to.

So dshanker, you seem to have alot of Canon speedlites that support HSS. Have you tried HSS and 1/2000th shutter speed yet? You would not be able to use your PWs, but your speedlites support the Canon wireless system.


Canon 40D; Canon 70-200 mm f/2.8L IS, 17-55mm f/2.8 IS, 85 mm f/1.8; 580EX II; Sigma EF-530 DG Super; CyberSyncs

  
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40Dude6aedyk
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Dec 07, 2008 22:46 |  #10

dshankar wrote in post #6833035 (external link)
Flash duration might be 1/1000 but what matters is the "stopping power" of the flash which depends on both the flash duration and the distance from the strobe to the player.

For me, distance is about 30-40 feet after being bounced (estimated). That, along with a slow flash duration *seems* to cause ghosting but I'm not sure!

From physics, distance from flash has nothing to do with stopping the action. Distance will affect the amount of light that reaches the camera lens though. "Stopping power" is based on duration of light reaching the camera sensor which can be limited by shutter-speed and/or flash duration.


Canon 40D; Canon 70-200 mm f/2.8L IS, 17-55mm f/2.8 IS, 85 mm f/1.8; 580EX II; Sigma EF-530 DG Super; CyberSyncs

  
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Gatorboy
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Dec 08, 2008 05:27 |  #11

One on-camera flash bounced off the ceiling for basketball is not going to cut it, and HSS is not the answer for trying to freeze motion.

What you should do is get a second flash, get them off camera and use direct rather than bounce. You'll get by with about 1/4 power on your flashes, and will be able to shoot ISO 200 to 400 at 1/250 and have crisp, frozen action images.


Dave Hoffmann

  
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namasste
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Dec 08, 2008 12:35 |  #12

Gatorboy wrote in post #6835527 (external link)
One on-camera flash bounced off the ceiling for basketball is not going to cut it, and HSS is not the answer for trying to freeze motion.

What you should do is get a second flash, get them off camera and use direct rather than bounce. You'll get by with about 1/4 power on your flashes, and will be able to shoot ISO 200 to 400 at 1/250 and have crisp, frozen action images.

I agree. I can't get ISO that low but even in a gym with 500/2.8/3200 available, I can get action frozen using two flash guns at 1/4 pwr and 250/800ISO. You have to vary the zoom at times but usually 50-70mm is suffice. The farther away I can get them and the higher, the better and then you simply need to aim them about 7' above the top of the key in a crossing pattern. I'm not going to argue HSS here but can say for sure that what I described above works well and is widely accepted as a means of lighting a HS gym. If someone has their own method and it works for them, have at it, afterall they are your images.


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40Dude6aedyk
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Dec 08, 2008 13:59 |  #13

Gatorboy wrote in post #6835527 (external link)
One on-camera flash bounced off the ceiling for basketball is not going to cut it, and HSS is not the answer for trying to freeze motion.

What you should do is get a second flash, get them off camera and use direct rather than bounce. You'll get by with about 1/4 power on your flashes, and will be able to shoot ISO 200 to 400 at 1/250 and have crisp, frozen action images.

That is simply not true. The flash may give me an exposure of 1/4000th of the second and stop action, but I will also get the ambient at ISO 200 to 400 exposed for 1/250th sec at the apertures I want to use. That will give me plenty of ghosting (i.e. no stop action) in the gyms that I shoot in.

However, I am getting a 2nd flash and I will get them off camera and I will experiment with both direct and bounce.


Canon 40D; Canon 70-200 mm f/2.8L IS, 17-55mm f/2.8 IS, 85 mm f/1.8; 580EX II; Sigma EF-530 DG Super; CyberSyncs

  
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ahhhlawn
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Dec 08, 2008 15:50 |  #14

#2 is very nice... just dont like the side hoop.


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Gatorboy
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Dec 08, 2008 16:06 |  #15

40Dude6aedyk wrote in post #6838033 (external link)
That is simply not true. The flash may give me an exposure of 1/4000th of the second and stop action, but I will also get the ambient at ISO 200 to 400 exposed for 1/250th sec at the apertures I want to use. That will give me plenty of ghosting (i.e. no stop action) in the gyms that I shoot in.

Good luck with trying to get a good exposure at 1/4000 of a second with HSS during an indoor basketball game.

Wow, you must shoot in some bright gyms to get ambient at ISO 200 and 1/250. Sounds like you don't need flash.


Dave Hoffmann

  
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In a well-lit gym, HSS ...
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