STICKY:  How Much do I charge? For your consideration

slightly off the path here but my cousin asked me to shoot for her at her wedding a while back.

2 things to consider:
1. I really didnt get to enjoy the receptiona ta ll. it was work, and alot of worrying. I wnated to amke sure i got a bunch of good shots, so it was quite stressful.
2. She bought the film for me and when i was done the shoot, i had a bag that i filled with the shot film which i handed her (this was back when i was shooting using only film). she took care of everything else.

All in all, since she was family i had no problem "working" for free. But just understand that this is work and you wont be able to enjoy the wedding like everyone else. Also, unless you are in a situation where you can afford to pay for developing the film, let that be known up front. hopefully they wont expect you to flip the bill. Also, maybe you could make it their wedding present. If your family doesnt understand this, then maybe you need to start looking for a new family. lol

Boy, this is an issue which is gonna get me into a lot of trouble, but at this point I'm going to have to say 'So what'. Essentially in this situation the professional is to the amateur or newby as to what the internet is to brick and mortar shops or to what Gnu/Linux/FOSS is to Microsoft. When did propping up the establishment become the problem of anyone besides the establishment???

Ever bought a camera/accessory off amazon? You contributed to the decline of the mom and pop camera stores that were plentiful 20 years ago but are going or gone today! Do you mourn for them or make others feel guilty for getting what they want at the best price?

Ever used The Gimp or other open source software? You took money out of Bill Gates and Adobe's grimy paws!

I'm only being half serious with the above, but I think perhaps the situation you are seeing is simply evolution catching up with you. You can either adapt or be run over by it.

How do you fight the internet? Embrace it! Seems to work for B&H and itunes, and those who arent embracing it (the MPAA for example) are either buried under or stressing so hard that its hardly got to be fun any more.

What do you do when your competition is free or cheap? Well, buy a bottle of water lately? Of course millions of people have. Either you offer a BETTER product that the other guys cant provide or move your value to SERVICE and not PRODUCT. It's what IBM is doing to embrace FOSS. Computers are now commodities. The value is in the services, consulting and minimally, the hardware that goes along with it.

We've all seen how the 'guilt trip' angle doesnt work for the RIAA or the MPAA, dont get too attached to it in your ecosystem. I'm sorry if this is blunt, hell I've got a mortgage and family too! But its better to think smart about this than to be indebted to the past and become a dinosaur.

Sam

I find myself on the fence with this issue (mainly with the low cost sites like istockphoto) since my full time profession is as a graphic designer. Photography is a hobby for me but ultimately I have hope of building up a decent stock portfolio that will hopefully bring in a bit o' cash on a fairly regular basis.

Now as a designer, I LOVE the notion of istockphoto and similar sites as I can buy a couple of decent shots for my less discriminating clients (or those simply without deep pockets) for literally pennies. Boosts my bottom line nicely.

As a photographer with a building portfolio I HATE those sites because obviously it drags down stock prices and makes it tough to compete within certain markets. Needless to say, I can't have it both ways but it makes it tough to decide which side to root for.

I believe in Free Markets and Free Enterprise, with necessary, but minimized regulation. In the case of photography markets, very little regulation is needed if any. No, I am not a Republican, please.

I do not want to deny people selling their photos for cheap. Yes, they are a nuisance and a bother. Appealing to their compassion for pro photographers does not work well. Appealing to their greed is much more effective. There are tiers of photo outlets. If a photographer on iStock is half decent, direct them to the next tier up where they can make more money, etc. If you (we, they) are successful enough, they will soon be competing directly with you in your pro space at your pro prices!

If somebody has $50,000 worth of camera equipment and is essentially or actually giving away photos for free, appeal to their greed. If they have that much equipment they are either greedy for equipment or greedy in other areas of life that have made the money to get that equipment. Either way, they have greed in their life that can be put into gear. Get one of their photos for free, thank them, and then laugh at them and tell them they just lost $1000. They have given away a photo with no restrictions on the rights and the new owner can sell it for good money elsewhere.

If Uncle Bob wants to do a wedding or two for $100, let him. A couple of unhappy brides out there will be powerful evidence for a dozen or more brides-to-be to get proper photographers.

It all balances out in the long run. This is a time of change and upheavel in the business, but it will not last. Raging against iStock and amateurs won't help your sales and is likely to hurt your coronary arteries.

There is a lot more to professional photography than a well composed, well exposed picture. At its most fundamental level, amateurs practice until they get it right, but professionals study and practice until they never (or hardly ever) get it wrong.

I am not writing hypothetically about the photographer market. I am about to test my convictions by going professional. I do not have much equipment, but I will not be entering at the bottom of the barrel. I will need some luck, but believe that good luck comes from good planning and hard work. I don't mind competition because even though I know many of my limitations I have confidence in my determination and my abilities.

I am don't know my stance on this topic.

The capitalist reality is that istock and similar sites are dominating, but only within a certain market niche. Generic, maybe "concept" images.

Are portrait photographers theatened by istock? wedding? sport? bird photographers?

istock is a threat to you, only if the images you produce are the same as were done before you many times. And we know how much those "photographs" cost.

Interesting thread. Thought provoking opinions. Nice ideas.

So can someone say which online stock agencies are good. I am in the process of putting a portfolio together and having never sold, tried to sell or given a picture away for free, it is time to think of where to sell my photos. I have looked at Corbis and Photoega.....are these sites good. Has anyone used them? I am against sites such as istock and want to be careful in choosing the best stcok site to put my collection on.

So, any reccommendations?

sixshot, stay away from anything that is royalty free. That alone usually means little or no cash.

Do a google search for stock photography and that should keep you busy looking thur sites. Look for something like indexstock and look for some wording like,"license stock photos". That is where you will find a place to sell your images based upon the use, the price will be according to industry standards.

This is really no different than Photodisc, Rubberball, Digital Vision and the like. 100 images for $300. Do any of the pros here sell "royalty free" or is everyone strictly "rights managed"?

my $0.02

Ok, I might be a little more militaristic about this but...
If you are an amature (someone who does not need to make a living taking pictures or for whom photography is not YOUR LIFES VOCATION) or a PRO, please DO NOT give away your work, sell your copyrights for nothing, work for byline credit, or in any other way act in a way that may undercut other photogs. I know it's nice to see your name in print and the experiance is cool but, you are take bread out of my mouth and KILLING an industry. I am a photojournalism student, by the time I graduate I will have more than $40,000 in student debt and a job that will at most pay me $25,000 a year. I am not just directing this at that people that give papers their pics for free. I am directing this at AP (and others) stringers (rights grabbing cotracts), "I'll work to improve my portfolio" people (please charge something even if it is only $20, it gets people usede to the idea that they need to pay for this skill), and the I'm not that good so I'll just give it away (for gods sake keep it to yourself).
The average wage of a photojournalist hasn't moved in more than a decade not even to compensate for the increase in the cost of living. It has done this because there are people out there that dont care about the comunity or the pros in it. All they care about is making a little money and this means that you have to take less than your worth as a pro to do just the same. and yes I yell at my friends who string for the AP while in college for some money because they are shooting them selves in the foot. can you imagine what would happen if everyone that took pictures for the AP demanded a fair deal and the didn't have an infinate supply of cheep labor to replace them with. as pros (or future pros ) we should be up in arms when we hear about non-pros shooting events, they should be run out of the place double time. remember that everytime someone with a day job decides to call themselves a photographer because they have a canon drebel and the 75-300 is lens they are cheapening the thousands of dollars and millions of manhours you have spent going to school and then paying your dues to perfect your craft.
to the amatures that read this. PLEASE, take pictures for your own (and your family and friends) enjoyment, don't take bread out of my mouth by undercutting me selling to istock or working for a byline. if you want to do pro work, CHARGE for it and demand that you keep the copyright. Why do you think that the every year the pullitzer is given to "AP staff photographer *****", it's because the AP not the photog has the copyright. If you really want to be a photojournalist, or a wedding photog, or anyother kind of photog, go get some training and do it. If it's just a pass time join the the local photo club or start one if there isn't one and don't ruin it for those of us that need to make a living doing this.
I know that this is harsh but these are the facts as I see em'. Feel free to lambast me now as I have said all I wanted to. just remember that only 25-30 years ago to be a photographer meant that you had envested time and money in training to learn how to shoot, process, print, report, understand the ethics envolved, etc. now anyone with a DREBEL is a photographer.

Riaz

best quote:
"I want to follow in all but the last of Robert Capa's foot steps."
my friend Alex talking about being a war photographer

Well, although your plea was quite impassioned I think that it will mostly fall on deaf ears. With the mass availablity of high-pixel, low-cost digital cameras the wages that you hope to be paid WILL continue to drop. It's no different than every other industry.

I'm a graphic designer with about 12 years of experience. As the internet exploded and the availablity of pirated programs grew my industry took a big hit. Ever do a search on the internet for "logo design"? There are people out there that are willing to design logos for $20. Are these trained, experienced designers? Probably not. Does that hurt my pocket book? Yep. Can I do anything to stop it? Not much.

The fact is that as technology gets cheaper the number of "professionals" grows. How do I combat this? Well, as a print designer I take advantage of sites like istockphoto.com to buy images for $3. I also own a very large stock of royalty-free images from photodisc, rubberball, etc. This enables me to increase my profits because not every client I get has deep enough pockets to buy their images from sites like gettyimages. The cheapo sites allow me to stay competative in a world of cheapo clients and design hobbyists that have brought my rates down.

It would be nice if I was able to obtain nothing but high-end clients with a price-is-no-object attitude but that's simply not the case. When I do manage to get the huge corporate client that's when I pay the bucks to buy rights-managed images because SOME clients demand it and have the budget to pay for it; but not all do.

Every industry changes and you need to be able to change with it. Find a niche and exploit it while you can. But to ask others to change their behavior in order to put more money into YOUR pocket isn't going to work.

Funny I should revisit this thread today. Over the weekend I did a double header high school baseball game. I had not shot either team before, the home team, also my alma mater, had played against the high school I cover on a regular basis a couple of weeks ago. I didn't get any shots of them, except the occasional slide into base where I was focused on the other team.

Saturday I had one parent from the visiting team come up while I was talking to a parent from the other team and one of the coaches. This guy introduces himself and starts asking about prices. When I quoted my prices he said I was ripping people off, they had been to a tourney last year with AAU and they had a guy who did the same thing. My prices were double what the other guy charged. The parent from the home team jumped into the conversation at this point, "Well his prices may be double but, they are worth every dime, even if they were triple!" I just about hugged this lady LOL. The coach agreed that the prices weren't outrageous by any means. Well this other guy started to walk away when the coach asked which number his kid was so I could make sure NOT to waste my time shooting him. LOL I almost hugged the coach.

About half way thru the first game another parent, a lady from the visiting team came up and introduced herself as the angry dad's wife. She said she was familiar with the online news site I shoot for and asked if I was indeed the guy who shot for them. I answered yes I was. She then asked me to be sure to get plenty of shots of her son as she had a job and would buy them herself.

So today I get an email and here it is.......

I can't really tell you how satisfying that was for him to email me with that bit of info. Now I am sorry that I didn't get more of his kid.

Each of us has to decide what his price will be, whether it is editorial or selling to parents. I would hope that when you set your pricing you take into consideration what others in your area are charging. I am on the high end of midrange. I am not the most expensive but not far from it and way more expensive than the lowballers out there.
If I would have started shooting the high school football games last year for dirt cheap prices, I couldn't even think of charging more this year. Once you establish yourself as dirt cheap and you relaize your not even making minimum wage it is hard to raise the price and justify it. This spring I have covered their baseball team, girls tennis and still have yet to get to a girls softball game. Think of all the money I would be missing out on if I were dirt cheap.

Once you get used to 50 cents hamburgers it isn't easy to pay $1.00 for the same burger now is it?

That's a great story, Jeff. It should be mandatory reading for anyone who feels the need to cut prices to compete. Eventually the people who appreciate your hight standards do come along, and things inevitably work out.

Belmondo as I explained to a guy last year, they are not paying as much for the print as the talent of being able to get the shot that makes that print desireable. Any mom can shoot from the stands with her $299 P & S but, can she get the action? I don't cut off heads, well not usually LOL.


Update, as I was typing this I got a phone call from the mom of one of the players, she wants 2 prints....20x30 poster size. She didn't bat an eye at the prices either.

Brand me a communist but I have to admit that I remain unconvinced. I think I'm not alone.
http://www.boingboing.​net …your_failed_bus​iness.html

Again, I'm not unsympathetic to people who are losing their livelyhoods, but the sooner people think about their strategy for dealing with this rather than lamenting the changes to the world around them, the better IMO.

Sam

Now this has been some very interesting reading! Really gives one alot to think about!!