STICKY:  How Much do I charge? For your consideration

Kadath wrote:
Brand me a communist but I have to admit that I remain unconvinced. I think I'm not alone.
http://www.boingboing.​net …your_failed_bus​iness.html

Again, I'm not unsympathetic to people who are losing their livelyhoods, but the sooner people think about their strategy for dealing with this rather than lamenting the changes to the world around them, the better IMO.

Sam

I fail to see the relevance of that link. To go out with the intentions of creating and selling an image knowingly taking money out of someone's livelyhood just doesn't make sense to me. I don't offer to work on someone's car just because I have a great set of tools. That is what mechanics are for.

Statements like the one quoted above are a prime example of why I no longer offer much advice on the internet, here or any other forums. There will come a day when one of the freebie shooters is offered a chance to shoot something and be paid for it. Good luck on finding out how much it is worth. Go spend a day shooting and processing all for a $250 paycheck. While the client certainly will appreciate it, knowing that you worked that hard for that money that should have been 10 times that much, may change your mind about shooting for free. I can only hope that someone tells you, "Man that is a good gig, I did one like it last month. Paid me $2500." I would love to see the look on the freebies face when he realizes he could have had a couple of nice new lenses, or studio lights instead of some off brand lens.


If you can sell an image, why not try getting an industry standard rate for it? Or could it be that when you ask for industry standard rates, the client is no longer interested. In that case, they are using your work not because it is a great image but, they are buying it because of the price. Personally, I would rather have someone use my images because they are good, not because the price is a bargin for them.

1900 - The first of the famous Kodak Brownie Cameras was introduced. It sold for $1 and used film that sold for 15 cents a roll. For the first time, the hobby of photography was within the financial reach of virtually everyone.

A few weeks later - Amateur photographers started giving away pictures.

A day after that - Professional photographers started whining about how amateurs are "taking food from my poor baby's mouth."

This is a really, really old discussion.

Thanks for the history lesson jr.


You know I have no problem with anyone giving away pictures of family, friends, landmarks or whatever but, when they start coming into an arena where the images are made for the purpose of selling and start giving them away, then I have a problem with that.

In some instances, amateurs giving away their work are trying to break into the business and that is not the way to do it.

Well, I didn't say you had to like it. You just have to live with it. The idea of amateurs undercutting the income of professionals is not new, it's not a recent phenomenon, it's not going to subside anytime soon, and it's certainly not exclusive to the photographic profession.

Amidst the whining, there's been a lot of widsom shared in this thread, and I don't want to minimize that. All amateurs should be wary of giving away their work to someone intent on profiting from it. Case in point, an ongoing announcement in my local newspaper:

"Attention Shutterbugs! Are you a photography buff who shows up with a camera everywhere you go? Sent us your photos of community events. Digital photos can be emailed to suckers@ournewspaper.c​om"

Translation: "We're too cheap to hire photographers or pay freelancers a fair price. We'd rather get free pics from any moron willing to send them to us." They want to profit from other people's charity.

I have been known to donate my services to my church and a few other not-for-profit organizations that I am involved with. But those who intend to use my photos for any commercial purpose will be asked to pay a fair price.

Good for yuo Curtis, glad to see you have some sense about you. At least you know "photo by _______" doesn't buy much at the grocery these days.

Just a quick update on the newspaper asking for pictures.
I sent them an email asking what they normally pay for submitted photos. Here is their response:

"We normally only pay our freelance staff for photos, but we gladly accept contributions from the public as community involvement greatly enhances the newspaper."

At least they're honest. They want to profit from my generosity. No, thanks.

Have you ever heard of Rohn Engh at www.photosource.com ? He has a book called Sell and Resell Your Photos and another called sellphotos.com, also a variety of resources online. There you can learn about editorial stock photography, how to price your photos and how to get started selling to photobuyers. I think you will find this an invaluable resource.

And what WERE your prices??

KAC

and not particularly different than what's happening in the software and support industries with all the work moving to cheap off-shore sweatshops.

KAC

BTW, Great thread. As said above, lots to think about. I'm shooting lots of shots of my daughters softball team with the intent to learn how to do it and perhaps offer it as a service (or assignment) in the future. How do I find out what the "going rate" is for such services?

KAC

Guys I must admit it: you open my eyes. This thread really illuminated me and made me remove all my images from istock. People must want me for the quality not for the cheap prices.

Indy I am completely sold to your theories and I am going to act consequently. Maybe I will never get to be a professional photographer, but I want to try at least with a professional attitude.

Thank you master.

Cheers,
Tony

sticky it

Whoa! Lots of emotion here, eh? Some suggesting that if I give my work away I am taking food off their table. Others suggesting that they enjoy the process so much they don't mind giving away their images. And others saying they'd love to get paid big bucks but don't know how. And I will add on here that I find the tone of those who feel we should all require big bucks for our work or keep it to ourselves a bit offensive ... almost to the point of being unAmerican ... in attacking anyone who disagrees with them. Guys, you aren't going to bring them back from the Dark Side by getting angry, making snide or sarcastic remarks, or otherwise belittling them because they aren't concerned about your welfare ... after all, you don't seem very concerned with theirs!

There is a lot of pressure on us little guys to work for free. My newspaper pays me the Princely sum of $40 for a shoot ... of which I have done four. Most people ask for pictures and never offer a penny, whether they are relatives, neighbors, or patrons at the bar. In fact, if you indicate that there is a fee, they are angered. Well, I don't like to have people angry at me ... so, if you can tell me how to get money from them without the chance that they will be angry that would be nice. If you have to lash out at me for being a wimp or not supportive of YOUR situation, then it is clear that you simply want me to subsidize your income by taking lumps ... not very friendly. And to be honest, I don't really care whether you can make a living or not, so if you want me to charge, you'd better work with me and not against me, OK?

With that said, let me say that I empathize with both sides. I am just now moving from the 'Photocredit/Pro Bono' group to the 'Here's my Price List' group. This is a very difficult move for us bleeding heart liberals! And I would argue that to gain the experience needed to demand reasonable fees it is necessary to do a bunch of former group type work. I still do royalty free work. I still give images away for free. How else will anyone know the quality of my work? How else will anyone even know I exist? On the other hand, I am slowly but surely making sure that people know I am a professional and require payment for work they ask me to do. That is currently where I make the distinction: if I shoot the images because I want the experience I am willing to give them away. If I am asked to shoot, I charge a reasonable fee. The trick, I think, is to get more and more shooting in that second category and that is the cusp of the issues in this thread. This is where we need the Pros to share a bit more deeply perhaps.

I saw the question asked repeatedly, "How do I make $150,000 from my image?" And I noticed that that question was ignored. What I read was, "Don't shoot for iStock (or whatever)!" but no good suggestions on the alternatives. In the old days we could apprentice to a master and learn the trade, both the technique and the business ends. So, if you're going to ask me to require payment for my work then you'd better tell me what I need to do, specifically, to be able to get it.

Putting on my other hat, of a professsional, I think getting to the point where people are willing to pay you the going rate is a lot of work, investment, time, energy, luck, connections, networking, taking lots of criticism well, suffering fools kindly, listening, watching, extending yourself, and learning where your strengths are. Rely on your supporters and ignore your detractors. Always be gracious, even to the most rank imbeciles ... don't worry, your supporters will take care of them for you. It is also very expensive to do top notch work.

Having said that, I think the best way to proceed is for those who want help learning how to make money from their photography ask specific questions. If those questions aren't answered then we will know that those asking that you don't give away your work simply want you to help them without any return ... they themselves want a free ride. If there are good answers, then everyone will benefit. But in the long run, those without talent will never rise and those with talent will find themselves buoyed to the top.

So I'll start! I shoot Live Performance images. I am good at it. But I have no idea how to find out what groups would be willing to pay me to shoot them. What should I do?

First of all I would like to say Great Thread folks, plenty of really good info here from both sides.

Here is my take on this. If a person seriously wants to be that well paid photographer he has to earn his way, take his lumps, pay his dues. Now, there are three ways that one can do this: (1) Go to school like any other trade and learn the ways of the wise and talented. (2) Apprentice with a Pro to learn those ways. OR (3) The long, hard, time consuming way of the Hobbiest, turned advanced amatuer, trying desperately to turn Pro. If you are truly serious and passionate about photography "go to School" and learn the ways. With talent and a good eye, this may be by far fastest way to get to Pro ranks.

Some people will never be exceptional Photographers like Dwight has said "those without talent will never rise and those with talent will find themselves buoyed to the top" . People can be taught the mechanics, and technical aspects of good photography, but they cannot be taught to see.

Now for Indy's point of view I must agree to a point. I totally agree that you must not let people take advantage of you. If you know your work is good you don't have to give it away to make a name for yourself the quality will sell. If your market area is slow and people won't pay then they just aren't deserving of your time and work. Those are not the people you want to waste your time on.
For instance, another sinario: 3 weeks ago I was asked by some good racing friends to come along on a trip (400 miles) to photograph their SuperBike races. They looked after me so there was no issue there and even as friends, appreciate the quality of work and never haggle my price, but of course they always get a little extra. I spent the first day, practice day, walking around, shooting from different areas, checking out the track and getting to know the officials and locals. These races are hosted by a non-profit club so sales come from the private racers themselves. This is where the situation gets a little different from Indy's. There are three resident photographers there, one shooting film and digital and giving out 4x6s for $1 a piece, one shooting digital and selling all race pics on disc for $10, and yet another shooting P&S film and selling a bundle of 4x6s for a couple dollars. Now, rather then the folks that can't afford my price complaining, and saying I'm trying to rip them off, they simply ooohhhed and aaahhhed and said " I wish I could afford a big one of those, they are awesome". That was a good feeling with no conflict, just appreciation. When all was said and done I got the better off customers who could afford it while the local photogs were there to satisfy those that couldn't. Did it work out? You bet, I am going back in July....
Take heart my friends there is enough room for all of us...

Thought you folks would like this. It is entertaining yet sort of sums things up as well.

Progression of a photographer

1. You start out with very little knowledge
2. You start doing research and realize it is much more difficult than you imagined.
3. You begin to pick up knowledge, the technical side of things.
4. You begin to use the technical knowledge and it works.
5. You start to feel as if you are mastering the technical
6. You begin to feel you know a LOT.
7. You start posting images that you are proud of.
8. You KNOW your images are better than much of what you see.
9. Family and friends start to oooo and aaaahhh at your images
10. Pro's don't seem to acknowledge you.
11. You think it's jealousy.
12. You reach a valley in your photography. You are starting to notice that your images aren't quite what you thought they would be.
13. You start to notice that, in your images, the models hands, the composition, the depth...isn't quite what you wanted.
14. Even your very favorite photograph isn't as good as you once thought. "I should have . . . "
15. You are now completely dissatisfied with everything you have ever shot.
16. You begin to realize that your photography is NOTHING compared to the masters.
17. You begin to see the differences in your photography compared to what you see published.
18. Now you are beginning to learn.

BigRed, absolutely ... there is room for all of us and I am just beginning to learn!