Fill flash for sunset photo

First, I have to say that I'd really rather not be doing this as I own both a camera and a hammer and I'm no more a photographer than I am a carpenter.
OTOH, he's a friend who has asked so I have to at least give it a go.

He's getting married at a cliff-top location on the west coast. Thankfully they've hired a real photographer but he will have gone by the time the sun sets. They'd like to get a shot with the setting sun in the background.
I suspect that there are nicer shots to be had using the setting sun to light them and then after the sun has set, using the sky as background.
I'm just guessing though. I don't have the experience to know that.

I'm familiar with the method of exposing for the background and lighting the foreground with flash and don't have any problem getting the correct mixtures of exposures from a histogram point of view, but have never managed to get something that looked "right". They tend to look like a sunset with a flash exposed foreground, rather than a coherent scene.

There are a few things that I'm changing although they are based on my own interpretation of why it doesn't look right.

I haven't been using a TTL flash other than the on camera one.
I don't believe the on-camera flash has enough power to allow me to stop down to get the required depth of field.
My more powerful flash is(was) a non-TTL auto style and it just died. I also have a simple, optically triggered slave flash.

I've just (today) bought a 580EX to replace the dead Sunpak so I expect that will give me a bit more flexibility. OTOH, a wedding isn't the time to be trying out new kit. Fortunately it's stopped raining so I can go experiment a bit.

The other thing that I hadn't been doing was diffusing the flash. I suspect that will make quite a bit of difference.

What about color balance ? There seems to be a conflict between the color of the flash and the light from the sunset.

That's about all I can think of. Sorry if it's too much.
Oh, the camera is a 350D.

Can anybody point out any errors in my thinking or approach, things I should look out for, try, etc.

Any composition hints for these types of pictures ?

Thanks in advance.

Steve.

Junior member here too, so I may be all wet with my feedback. Shoot after the sun goes down, and use an ND filter to allow you to open up exposer longer, and spot meter your subject. Using a smaller aperture will get more of the sunset into the picture. The better shot might be with your subject to the east, hopefully not squinting from the sun light on a background that has good light reflection, but make sure your own shadow is not in the shot. But if your want the background to be west then the fill flash is a must, built in flash is sometimes good enough depending on what lens and how close you are, and if you spot meter the flash should not over expose the subject. I am not sure on using the diffuser on the 580, this will only knock down the flash power (used more for better side lighting).

I shot this Sunday night with my 40D & 430EX. The flash was mounted on a tripod behind me and a little off to my left. I fired it with my Speedlite transmitter. I also have a Stofen diffuser on the flash.

I exposed the shot to the sunset and let the flash fill in the rest. I think the flash was -1/3 power.
Manual mode, 1/125sec, f/8, iso 200. This wasn't the first shot, it was one of many before I got the fill flash just right. I suggest practicing before the day, and even some more the day of with the sunset you will be shooting with.

While I always start out with a WB, I sometimes warm up or cool down a shot, depending on what I think looks good. Sometimes, I only will do that to part of an image.
So, the correct WB isn't always the right WB.

You could...
1. Just warm them up a bit. It shouldn't make a lot of difference to the sunset. A Adjustment Layer Maskwould allow local changes while leaving the background alone. Note what's said in the "Advanced Tips".
2. Add a warming filter to the flash.
3. Use a combination of the flash & a warming reflector to bounce some warm light in.

Thanks for posting that example Ryant35. It instantly pointed out something that was missing in my own photos (and most of the examples that don't quite look right).
The light is coming from the same side as the sun, or at least, the shadows are on the correct side of the subject.

I was also concerned that the sun would be so small that it would detract. Clearly it doesn't. Which lens did you use ? A very nice shot.

Renshots - Thanks for the tip about squinting.

Steve.

It was shot with a 17-40mm f/4 L

Get an umbrella, a light stand, and a stand hot-shoe for your flash.

Use a pc-sync cord if you don't have any other way to get it off camera.

Shoot in M for both the camera and flash.

USE AN UMBRELLA! This is the secret to a 'coherent' look. Something to warm up the flash like a gold insert ot CTO gel is a bonus but without an umbrella it will always look flat, like on-camera flash.

Or you could thread your hot shoe foot that comes with your flash onto your tripod.

If it is just of the sunset, the flash wouldn't effect the exposure. If there is a subject in the forefront, then fill flash, which is done with the 2nd curtain is necessary

Steve, welcome to the forum: It's a great place to learn.

If you want, I can lend you an extended off-shoe cord that you can use, either on a stand or have someone hold it, with or without an umbrella.

By using the cord, you can let the camera ETTL take care of the fill flash while the flash is off to the side.

Pop over to the GKPE thread in the POTN Lounge section & introduce yourself. There are lots of Aucklander's on there.

That's mighty kind of you Mark. I may just take you up on that. (I'll send you a PM).
I just grabbed a dumb wireless sender/receiver which will get the flash away from the camera. I'm probably more familiar with driving the flash manually anyway, so that gives me a backup plan.

Umbrella - Message received Hoff. Thanks.

Steve.

Ryan, How did the sun not over expose with that slow shutter. I was looking at some of my shots from a cruise, AV mode 4.0 (should have been lower ?(because the light was changing so quickly), with corresponding exposure to 1/640 -- should have used M ?

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I used manual and metered on the sunset, at f/8 for enough depth of field to keep both subjects in focus, and adjusted my shutter speed fast enough to keep my subject and background sharp and then adjusted my ISO accordingly.

So if I didn't fire my flash I could photograph the sunset perfectly. In fact the flash firing doesn't effect the sunset's exposure at all, you can't tell it fires unless there is something in the foreground that will be lit by the flash.

Then I adjusted my flash power and distance from my subject with a couple of test shots while she was fixing her hair.

Also having my flash on a tripod makes it really easy to adjust the legs to stand on the very uneven rocks I was shooting on.