ok, i'm missing something obvious...

I'm having some weird results with my 430ex. I was doing some test shots to try to figure out how to control the power of the flash.

So in ETTL mode, and the flash pointing directly at the subject, i get proper color temperatures, etc. in this case, i'm using AWB. But when i switch my flash to Manual, no matter how controlled the flash power is or what i set it to, i still get a cold bluish hue.

and to that end, can anyone tell me what i'm missing, and what good books are out there that explain the basics of manual and ettl flash photography? I'd really like to get better at using the flash, but there seems to be just too much to know. any help appreciated. thanks!

Can you post some examples?

There are some great stickies at the top of this forum section about the Canon flash system.

i knew that question would come up. Here are a couple shots to show what i'm referring to (pardon the soft focus on the 2nd):

in ETTL mode:

Are there fluorescent lights in the room?

The EXIF is stripped from those images.

I'm gonna write that it's obvious that the 2nd photo has less light from your flash in it. Since the light in the photo is a combination of ambient light and your speedlite, I'm gonna say there is a higher proportion of blue/fluorescent light in the second photo.

So with manual flash: Increase the flash power setting (say from 1/8 to 1/4) to get a longer duration light from it and make your shutter speed faster to reduce ambient light.

Bottom line: ALWAYS think about ambient light and your flash light when taking photos. It is also helpful to think about the absence of light, i.e. where the light doesn't go (we usually call those places shadows)

I don't think ambient light is contributing much, if anything, to these images. The exposure is different between the two images, but I don't think that is the issue either. What seems more likely to me is that the camera communicates with the flash better in ETTL than it does with the flash in manual and adjusts differently as it processes the image. I suspect that on manual, because the image has a lot of warm tones in it, the camera will try to turn out an image that is more "neutral" when in auto white balance. I'm not in a position to run a test right now and I never use my 580EX in manual, but check your EXIF data and see if the camera even knows there is a flash on it when the flash is in manual mode. It doesn't when using studio flash.

hecster wrote in post #6918800
I'm having some weird results with my 430ex. I was doing some test shots to try to figure out how to control the power of the flash.

So in ETTL mode, and the flash pointing directly at the subject, i get proper color temperatures, etc. in this case, i'm using AWB. But when i switch my flash to Manual, no matter how controlled the flash power is or what i set it to, i still get a cold bluish hue.

and to that end, can anyone tell me what i'm missing, and what good books are out there that explain the basics of manual and ettl flash photography? I'd really like to get better at using the flash, but there seems to be just too much to know. any help appreciated. thanks!

Yes, I've noticed that as well. I've wondered about that but never really pursued it to find a reason for it. It'll be interesting to hear what others have to say about it.

[EDIT: I do have a theory, though, and will try some experiments to see if it could be right. )

I have noticed this too, like Jim said, I think it has to do with the ETTL communication. Switching to flash whitebalance has always worked for me.

I could be completely wrong, but I think the camera probably automatically uses flash whitebalance when in ETTL, but when you go to manual, the camera doesnt "decide" to use flash AWB...just my guess...

I agree, when you switch to manual, switch you white balance to flash.

I experimented by switching between E-TTL and manual flash, with the camera set on AWB. I could not produce a difference as dramatic as the photos posted.

However, with bounced flash, the "as shot" color temp was 300K lower with manual flash than with E-TTL.

I'll do some more experimentation later today after i get back from running some errands. i think i can probably just fix this issue by shooting in raw and balancing it out with lightroom, but it'd be nice to recreate what ETTL is doing to give the picture the warmth that the 2nd picture is sorely missing.

in the meantime, if you're interested in the exif data, here it is. thanks for the feedback!


first picture:
File name: IMG_9652.JPG
File size: 2106603 bytes (3072x2048, 2.7bpp, 9x)
EXIF Summary: 1/90s f/4.0 ISO200 40mm (35mm eq:64mm)

Camera-Specific Properties:

Equipment Make: Canon
Camera Model: Canon EOS 10D
Maximum Lens Aperture: f/4.0
Sensing Method: One-Chip Color Area
Lens Size: 24.00 - 105.00 mm
Firmware Version: Firmware Version 2.0.1
Serial Number: 1220402605
Owner Name: Gerald Gongon

Image-Specific Properties:

Image Orientation: Top, Left-Hand
Horizontal Resolution: 180 dpi
Vertical Resolution: 180 dpi
Image Created: 2008:12:20 23:36:52
Exposure Time: 1/90 sec
F-Number: f/4.0
ISO Speed Rating: 200
Lens Aperture: f/4.0
Exposure Bias: 0 EV
Flash: Flash, Compulsory, Red-Eye Reduce
Focal Length: 40.00 mm
Color Space Information: sRGB
Image Width: 3072
Image Height: 2048
Rendering: Normal
Exposure Mode: Manual
Scene Capture Type: Standard
Exposure Mode: Manual
Focus Type: Auto
Metering Mode: Evaluative
Sharpness: Normal
Saturation: Normal
Contrast: Normal
Shooting Mode: Manual
Image Size: Large
Focus Mode: AI Focus
Drive Mode: Continuous
Flash Mode: Red-Eye Reduction (On)
Compression Setting: Fine
Macro Mode: Unknown
Subject Distance: 0.091 m
Flash Bias: 1.00 EV
White Balance: Auto
Exposure Compensation: 3
Sensor ISO Speed: 192
Image Number: 396-9652

Other Properties:

Resolution Unit: i
Chrominance Comp Positioning: Centered
Exif IFD Pointer: 196
Compression Scheme: JPEG Compression (Thumbnail)
Horizontal Resolution: 180 dpi
Vertical Resolution: 180 dpi
Resolution Unit: i
Offset to JPEG SOI: 2548
Bytes of JPEG Data: 6656
Exif Version: 2.21
Image Generated: 2008:12:20 23:36:52
Image Digitized: 2008:12:20 23:36:52
Meaning of Each Comp: Unknown
Image Compression Mode: 3
Shutter Speed: 1/90 sec
Metering Mode: Pattern
Focal Plane Horiz Resolution: 3443 dpi
Focal Plane Vert Resolution: 3442 dpi
Focal Plane Res Unit: i
File Source: Digital Still Camera
White Balance: Auto
Base Zoom Resolution: 3072
Zoomed Resolution: 3072
ISO Speed Rating: Unknown
Digital Zoom: None
Self-Timer Length: 0 sec
Canon Tag1 Length: 92
Sequence Number: 0
Canon Tag4 Length: 66
Actuation Counter: 0
Actuation Multiplier: 0
Canon Tag93 Length: 18
Image Type: IMG:EOS 10D JPEG
Custom Function: Lens AF stop button - Operate AF
Custom Function: Safety shift in Av or Tv - Enabled
Custom Function: Shutter curtain sync - 1st-Curtain Sync
Custom Function: Fill flash auto reduction - Enabled
Custom Function: Assist button function - Select HP (while pressing)
Custom Function: Mirror lockup - Disabled
Custom Function: Menu button display position - Previous
Custom Function: Superimposed display - On
Custom Function: AEB sequence/auto cancellation - -,0,+/Enabled
Custom Function: RAW+JPEG recording - RAW+Large/Fine
Custom Function: AF point registration - Center
Custom Function: Exposure level increments - 1/2 Stop
Custom Function: AF-assist beam/Flash firing - Only Ext. Flash Emits/Fires
Custom Function: Shutter button/AE lock button - AF/AF Lock, No AE Lock
Custom Function: Flash sync speed in Av mode - Auto
Custom Function: Shutter release w/o CF card - No
Custom Function: SET button function when shooting - Change Parameters

second picture:
File name: IMG_9651.JPG
File size: 1700480 bytes (3072x2048, 2.2bpp, 11x)
EXIF Summary: 1/90s f/4.0 ISO200 40mm (35mm eq:64mm)

Camera-Specific Properties:

Equipment Make: Canon
Camera Model: Canon EOS 10D
Maximum Lens Aperture: f/4.0
Sensing Method: One-Chip Color Area
Lens Size: 24.00 - 105.00 mm
Firmware Version: Firmware Version 2.0.1
Serial Number: 1220402605
Owner Name: Gerald Gongon

Image-Specific Properties:

Image Orientation: Top, Left-Hand
Horizontal Resolution: 180 dpi
Vertical Resolution: 180 dpi
Image Created: 2008:12:20 23:36:41
Exposure Time: 1/90 sec
F-Number: f/4.0
ISO Speed Rating: 200
Lens Aperture: f/4.0
Exposure Bias: 0 EV
Flash: Flash, Compulsory, Red-Eye Reduce
Focal Length: 40.00 mm
Color Space Information: sRGB
Image Width: 3072
Image Height: 2048
Rendering: Normal
Exposure Mode: Manual
Scene Capture Type: Standard
Exposure Mode: Manual
Focus Type: Auto
Metering Mode: Evaluative
Sharpness: Normal
Saturation: Normal
Contrast: Normal
Shooting Mode: Manual
Image Size: Large
Focus Mode: AI Focus
Drive Mode: Continuous
Flash Mode: Red-Eye Reduction (On)
Compression Setting: Fine
Macro Mode: Unknown
Subject Distance: 0.084 m
White Balance: Auto
Exposure Compensation: 3
Sensor ISO Speed: 192
Image Number: 396-9651

Other Properties:

Resolution Unit: i
Chrominance Comp Positioning: Centered
Exif IFD Pointer: 196
Compression Scheme: JPEG Compression (Thumbnail)
Horizontal Resolution: 180 dpi
Vertical Resolution: 180 dpi
Resolution Unit: i
Offset to JPEG SOI: 2548
Bytes of JPEG Data: 5632
Exif Version: 2.21
Image Generated: 2008:12:20 23:36:41
Image Digitized: 2008:12:20 23:36:41
Meaning of Each Comp: Unknown
Image Compression Mode: 3
Shutter Speed: 1/90 sec
Metering Mode: Pattern
Focal Plane Horiz Resolution: 3443 dpi
Focal Plane Vert Resolution: 3442 dpi
Focal Plane Res Unit: i
File Source: Digital Still Camera
White Balance: Auto
Base Zoom Resolution: 3072
Zoomed Resolution: 3072
ISO Speed Rating: Unknown
Digital Zoom: None
Self-Timer Length: 0 sec
Canon Tag1 Length: 92
Flash Bias: 0.00 EV
Sequence Number: 0
Canon Tag4 Length: 66
Actuation Counter: 0
Actuation Multiplier: 0
Canon Tag93 Length: 18
Image Type: IMG:EOS 10D JPEG
Custom Function: Lens AF stop button - Operate AF
Custom Function: Safety shift in Av or Tv - Enabled
Custom Function: Shutter curtain sync - 1st-Curtain Sync
Custom Function: Fill flash auto reduction - Enabled
Custom Function: Assist button function - Select HP (while pressing)
Custom Function: Mirror lockup - Disabled
Custom Function: Menu button display position - Previous
Custom Function: Superimposed display - On
Custom Function: AEB sequence/auto cancellation - -,0,+/Enabled
Custom Function: RAW+JPEG recording - RAW+Large/Fine
Custom Function: AF point registration - Center
Custom Function: Exposure level increments - 1/2 Stop
Custom Function: AF-assist beam/Flash firing - Only Ext. Flash Emits/Fires
Custom Function: Shutter button/AE lock button - AF/AF Lock, No AE Lock
Custom Function: Flash sync speed in Av mode - Auto
Custom Function: Shutter release w/o CF card - No
Custom Function: SET button function when shooting - Change Parameters

update: twiggles and lori were right on. setting it to flash WB corrects the issue. for some reason, AWB wants to use the flourescent WB setting. Thanks everybody! I've been reading the stickies all day and man, that's a lot of information to process. ETTL sure has spoiled me.