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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 29 Dec 2008 (Monday) 14:29
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HiLite and BX500Ri x2

 
TMR ­ Design
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Jan 08, 2009 17:40 as a reply to  @ post 7034469 |  #31

I'm not taking anything personally at all.
One of the first things I said was that the image looks good. I'm not here to ruin anyone's day and only point out what is wrong but there were some obvious things.

OK, regarding Zack Arias... I like him and appreciate his work and tutorials but if you speak to others about Zack they will all agree that his white seamless tutorial is not the 'go to' tutorial and Zack admits openly that he's not a technical guy. He knows a lot, he knows what works and he is able to explain things but he is not the best technical reference.

I understand the difference between pure white an blown out but what I'm saying is that since we can't display a value greater than 255 we have no way of knowing how far into clipping the white has been driven. I completely understand but disagree with you about veiling. It's not a given that it will be there and flare appears in many ways. Again, the lack of almost all contrast between the white and the peak of the dogs head clearly shows that there is too much light returning to the subject area and from what I can see there is also flare.

Perhaps we need to agree to disagree but I still see what I'm seeing.


Robert
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eduardofrances
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Jan 08, 2009 18:10 |  #32

TMR Design wrote in post #7034526 (external link)
I'm not taking anything personally at all.
One of the first things I said was that the image looks good. I'm not here to ruin anyone's day and only point out what is wrong but there were some obvious things.

OK, regarding Zack Arias... I like him and appreciate his work and tutorials but if you speak to others about Zack they will all agree that his white seamless tutorial is not the 'go to' tutorial and Zack admits openly that he's not a technical guy. He knows a lot, he knows what works and he is able to explain things but he is not the best technical reference.

I understand the difference between pure white an blown out but what I'm saying is that since we can't display a value greater than 255 we have no way of knowing how far into clipping the white has been driven. I completely understand but disagree with you about veiling. It's not a given that it will be there and flare appears in many ways. Again, the lack of almost all contrast between the white and the peak of the dogs head clearly shows that there is too much light returning to the subject area and from what I can see there is also flare.

Perhaps we need to agree to disagree but I still see what I'm seeing.

There is really a way to see if you are blowing up too much your background light and it manifests in the form of a flare that veils the subject, that it is a really blown out background and while you may say the tutorial lacks in certain technical areas, it does a pretty good job explaining why this phenomenon appears when you are really blowing out the background, what the OP has is an uneven distribution of light due to the fall off -inverse square law- because he is using only 1 source of light to illuminate the background.

I truly invite you to try it yourself to check how the veiling flare phenomenon manifests.

It is only normal that the parts of the dog are more illuminated than others the dog's body is tridimentional and the light fall off will gradate to darker tones to the lower part and the side of the dog where there is less light there is some reflection from the background or it very well could be a low ceiling, as I see it: it is responding to the gradation produced by the fall off of the lighting pointed to the background and the fall off produced by the main light.

Let's agree that we disagree.


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TMR ­ Design
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Jan 08, 2009 18:24 |  #33

eduardofrances wrote in post #7034708 (external link)
Let's agree that we disagree.

I think we should because I strongly disagree.


Robert
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eduardofrances
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Jan 08, 2009 19:30 |  #34

TMR Design wrote in post #7034793 (external link)
I think we should because I strongly disagree.

me too.


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Rudi
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Jan 08, 2009 19:51 |  #35

Hermes wrote in post #7034325 (external link)
Is the build of the BxRi really that bad? - I haven't had a chance to try one out yet. Any other negatives you noticed?

The build of the BXR1 is actually quite good! Not quite to the BX or RX standard, but very good. There are three things that make it seem less so (to me):

1) They used similar plastic to the D-Lites for the casing, so it looks and feels cheaper than it otherwise would;

2) The shape of the casing is making it look cheaper, IMO, like a toy;

3) They're made in India.


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TMR ­ Design
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Jan 08, 2009 20:02 |  #36

Rudi wrote in post #7035254 (external link)
The build of the BXR1 is actually quite good! Not quite to the BX or RX standard, but very good. There are three things that make it seem less so (to me):

1) They used similar plastic to the D-Lites for the casing, so it looks and feels cheaper than it otherwise would;

2) The shape of the casing is making it look cheaper, IMO, like a toy;

3) They're made in India.

Don't forget the swivel mount. It's closer to the D-Lite than the BX/RX.
I don't know if I would go as far as saying the build is quite good. I think it's packaged nicely and has a slick appearance but upon close inspection and playing with the body, the mount and controls I did not feel it was that good.


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Rudi
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Jan 08, 2009 20:16 |  #37

TMR Design wrote in post #7035325 (external link)
Don't forget the swivel mount. It's closer to the D-Lite than the BX/RX.
I don't know if I would go as far as saying the build is quite good. I think it's packaged nicely and has a slick appearance but upon close inspection and playing with the body, the mount and controls I did not feel it was that good.

Agreed. The swivel mount looks a little lighter than the BX/RX strobes. The controls have a cheaper feel. The control panel feels more like the D-lites than the RX strobes.


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Hermes
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Jan 08, 2009 20:38 |  #38

Thanks guys, been a big help.

Hopefully when Elinchrom give the RXs their next overhaul they'll adapt the BxRi features without sacrificing build quality any more. There seems to be a growing pattern of using cheaper and cheaper materials for their monoblocs which makes me question if these new plastic lights will last as well as the older Elinchrom strobes do.




  
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ukactionsports
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Jan 09, 2009 10:09 |  #39

TMR Design wrote in post #7033959 (external link)
Hi Tim,

Congratulations on the 400BX's. They're outstanding. I own 4 of them and I'm very happy.

Your image looks good. A few comments. The first has nothing to do with lighting. I think the image would benefit from greater depth of field so that the hair towards the back are sharp and in focus.

Lighting is good but not quite uniform. You've got pure white at the top of the frame and as you move down to the bottom there is a slight gradation moving away from white and towards gray. It's not a lot but it is there. I'm not sure if you used a meter and I don't know the subject to background distance but it appears you're got some flare and too much light returning from the background back to the subject area. It's most noticeable around the head.

Good first try. Keep working on it. :D

Hi Rob,

These were a quick few shots from last night, I started taking picture of my girfriend however she didn't want these online (she hadn't done her hair) so the dog was the next model target! :) On the images of my GF the background seemed to be OK as she was standing, I noticed that the bacground was white shifting to grey however i wanted to start with getting the main light setup and then I'll work on getting the background adjusted.

As a rough guide, should the background be a stop higher then the main light? Long term I may look to add a 3rd strobe to light the other side but that can wait for now.

I've got a light meter so i'll play more tonight.

I'm still learning so all CC is very welcome! Good or bad.

Cheers


Tim

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TMR ­ Design
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Jan 09, 2009 20:29 as a reply to  @ ukactionsports's post |  #40

Hi Tim,

It looks like you've removed the image from your last post. I saw it earlier and it was much better in my opinion. The gradation from left to right was there but it wasn't too bad and there wasn't nearly as much flare coming back to the dogs head. That was evident from the greater contrast between the peak of the head and the white background, which was significantly different and much better than in the first image you posted.

I don't meter backgrounds the way most people seem to do it. I was taught and continue to meter my backgrounds using reflective spot metering rather than incident metering. I realize that Lastolite recommends 2 stops above taking aperture but that's not very scientific. It's more of a generic number that will ensure that the whole background is white but should not be taken as a definitive number to be used every time you want to turn a background white.

I take reflective readings because there is a constant that isn't there with incident readings. For instance, if I have a gray background and I have a white background and I want to render them both as pure white using incident values then the number will be different for each of them because you're metering the light that falls on the background and you'll need a different amount of light to render gray as white than you will if you were rendering white as pure white.

By taking a reflective reading you don't have this problem. It will still take a different amount of light but you're not concerned with the light that falls on the background. You can meter any color or type of background and as long as you meter 4 stops reflective over the incident subject exposure you'll always render pure white, whether you have a black, gray or white background.

An example of how the 2 stop recommendation doesn't hold up is in my own studio with white seamless paper. I use Savage Super White seamless and when I setup for a 4 stop reflective difference to achieve pure white and then take an incident reading at the background I show 1.5 stops difference between the subject area and background. If my background was gray I'd have to arrive at a new number for the incident value but my reflective reading will still be 4 stops over the incident subject exposure.

So if I meter f/8 at my subject then I know I need to see f/32 reflective from the background. If I meter my subject at f/4 I need f/16 reflective from my background. As long as I have a 4 stop difference I'm in business.

If you were using incident readings you would have to guess, chimp, check it on the computer or go overboard and blow out the background to ensure pure white, which is what most people do, and it's a bad practice.


Robert
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steveathome
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Jan 10, 2009 05:44 |  #41

I find it interesting that Elinchrom have listed the Ri's under their professional compact range.
Build strength aside, I would assume that these units are therefore designed for continuous heavy usage?




  
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Jan 10, 2009 05:46 |  #42

steveathome wrote in post #7044748 (external link)
I find it interesting that Elinchrom have listed the Ri's under their professional compact range.
Build strength aside, I would assume that these units are therefore designed for continuous heavy usage?

So are the plain BX strobes.


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Jan 10, 2009 06:02 |  #43

Rudi,
I wonder if you may be able to explain the difference in the third radio link setting on these units for me (BX250Ri)?
Off
On
El skyport Speed Mode?

I assume that in the on position that they communicate with the skyport universal transmitters, and would have power and modeling light control. Therefore what would the third mode be for "speed mode"?
Many thanks




  
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ukactionsports
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Jan 10, 2009 06:16 |  #44

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the comments, i think i understand it :confused: I'll have a play later.

I removed the picture as it was a poor quality version as I compressed it at work and the PC didn't do it very well so I've hosted a better version on my site, see below.

My own CC is that the background appears to be a little grey towards the bottom of the frame, but doesnt appear as bad as the other one. Even though they were shot at the same time.

All CC welcome as I want to learn! :D

IMAGE NOT FOUND
IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE

Tim

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ukactionsports
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Jan 10, 2009 07:05 |  #45

Note. I know the hair coming from his right ear is annoying/distracting and its since been trimmed! :D


Tim

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