Community Orchestra wants to buy shots and hire me to take photos...but...

But I have never done a professional gig or sold any pictures, so I really don't know exactly how to proceed. Here's what they want:

1. Provide shots that I have taken, or will take of the group to be used in a local newspaper, their website, brochures, and a newsletter.

2. Take pictures of the group at Carnegie Hall and provide these shots for the same purpose as above.

The legality of shooting in Carnegie Hall is being taken care of, so I don't need any advise about that.

So basically, I need to know what sort of rules/stipulations I ought to put in a contract and what sort of prices I should charge. I really don't want to "sock it to them." They are not a professional orchestra and I am a supporter of the arts. In fact, in my offer, I said I would be willing to do it as a donation in kind. I stipulated that if I do that, my pictures could only be used for personal enjoyment. They opted to pay me so they could use the photos in ads.

So with this in mind, what would you charge? What are some typical stipulations a photographer would use in a contract? Having read one of the above stickys, I agree that a photographer's time and product is worth compensation - but what?

Stefan

Here is how I would look at it ......

You are already willing to do it for free to support them. That orchestra is filled with volunteers who are all potential customers.

I would charge just enough to cover your expenses and buy a nice dinner night out with the significant other. That way, they get to use them in ads, but at the same time, they don't feel taken advantage of by you coming back with too high a price. You get a night out paid for and if your pics are good, a whole bunch of potential referrals.

Just remember though, that this may become an annual thing so you'll want to consider if you will be willing to work for them cheap/free down the line.

Thanks for your advice. I am not so sure this would pan out for more jobs from the orchestra members. Last year, I took a bunch of shots at St. Patrick Cathdral in NYC when the orchestra performed there. For that, there was no arrangement of any kind. I took the pictures because I was allowed to and I wanted to. Mainly for practice. I gave the orchestra those shots. They used one of them in a brochure and their website. I never got a single inquiry regarding other gigs from the orchestra OR any members. In fact, for the job in the original post, I had to be the one to contact them.

I should also say that I am not necessarily looking for more work. At this time in my life, I don't feel I am ready to go pro. With this situation, I have confidence that I can do it well. I am not sure I am ready for weddings, senior shots, family portraits, etc...

Stefan

I shot once at Carnegie Hall and wanted to alert you to two things. Shooting is only done from the rear of the orchestra and never in the aisles or along the side walls. It is also best to quiet your camera as much as possible because they have been known to take db readings to ensure that the shutter sound does not interfere with the performance.

The business side is a tough call. You need to have some compensation but it is likely that a community orchestra has a limited budget. Room, perhaps and meal?

Thanks Ski. I have been told that there is to be no photography while the orchestra actually performing. That's pretty limiting, but that is what I have been told. I guess I can only shoot between pieces.

I appreciate all the advise about what to charge for shooting the event. But I would still appreciate any specific prices about giving them pictures to publish.

Stefan

I have never shot an orchestra or other volunteer performing arts group. But it seems like if you give them some really low price (enough to cover a dinner) then that is more or less what you can expect for future gigs. When/if you decide you are ready to go pro, they will still want to pay you $100 for all of your time/effort. If you ask for more, they'll feel like you're cheating them and move on to somebody else. It seems to me that if you are content with whatever they pay you this time, and treat it as a kind of donation, then that's fine. But the referrals you are likely to get (if any) will expect the same low price. Something to think about.

Thanks MCB - those are good points.

Since nobody wants to chime in with a ballpark figure, I will. I just don't have a frame of reference for pricing photography.

What about $400 for the Carnegie Hall shoot (including my PP time, a disc, and the rights to use the pictures in their advertising).

$50 per photo per use for the additional photos they want to use.

Stefan

Have you considered this? In order for the orchestra to use the photos in advertising and promotionally on their website, you should have a signed model release from each and every recognizable person in any image that's used. Personally, I'd want a signed property release from the venue, as well.

Now, the orchestra might already have on file a signed waiver from each participant, allowing usage of the individual's image to promote and market the orchestra. If so, at a very minimum I'd want to know exactly what that waiver says and, if it appears to be acceptable, would want copies of all of the signed waivers in my files, too.

Those waivers, if they exist, probably would not extend beyond orchestra-related usage of the images, I'm guessing. So, in other words, you probably could not use or sell the images for any commercial purposes beyond the orchestra's. That includes self-promotion usage, although you could display them in a portfolio (actual printed or virtual, which are not considered commercial usage as it stands right now), but that's about it.

I don't know what to suggest charging. The orchestra sounds as if it's a recognized charitable organization, in which case you might be able donate your services or only ask for a token amount for the shoot and/or usage of your images, get a signed letter from them acknowledging "fair market value" of your donation, over their charitable license number, and take a nice tax deduction this year. However, talk with your tax accountant about this.

I really don't think it hurts one's ability to charge reasonable fees for non-charitable work, if one occasionally "gives back" to worthy, charitable causes by donating services and limited usage of one's images. Ask for credits and perhaps a link from their website to yours, and offer reasonably priced prints to the members of the orchestra who might want a keepsake of the even themselves, especially playing in a major venue like Carnegie. Be sure to get not only broad shots of the orchestra as a group, but also some tighter shots of the individuals.

Is there a practice session, dress rehearsal? If so, that might be a time to get more shots than are possible during the actual performance.

There are sound deadening devices for cameras. They can be rented, if you have enough lead time. With an actual out-of-pocket expense like this, the orchestra might be willing to cover the cost. The same might be true of travel and lodging expenses.

It takes time to realize "good will" benefits that are established by helping out any charitable organization. A call back for a paying job can come months or years later, usually when you least expect it. Or it can happen the next day. It's purely speculative, but the more you get your name and work out for people to see, the more they will be inclined to think of you when they need to hire a photographer themselves, or to recommend you to others.

But, hey, I'm not an accountant or attorney.... Just a mere photographer.

Alan

Thanks for the reply. If I am just the photographer, is it really my responsibility to get model releases? I am not the one who would be submitting these photos for advertising. I would sell them to the orchestra and they can do what they want. I would think it would be their job to take care of that.

I gave them the choice of letting me do it for a donation in kind, or for pay. They chose pay because I said that I wouldn't allow publication of my photos without it. That is something I picked up from this forum - not to give away photos.

I don't know if there is a dress rehearsal or not. But if the above poster is right and I have to be behind the orchestra, I am going to have mainly the backs of heads. So I don't know what going to happen with that.

Stefan

Stefan,

Over here in the UK, as the members of Orchastra are in effect working for the Orchastra, then so long as the Orchastra have commissioned you to take the photographs, then you shouldn't need model releases as the people contained with the pictures are all members of the Orchastra. - Make sense?! Putting it simply, if a company employs you to take a headshot of their CEO, you don't a model release from the CEO. What you do need is a clause in your contract with them that says that you will use the images for your own self-promotion.

Well done on the paid job... and being realistic about not giving photographs away. The price that you've suggested is a good starting point if you've never done this sort of thing before.

Thanks John

Stefan

Stefan A wrote in post #7005298
But I have never done a professional gig or sold any pictures, so I really don't know exactly how to proceed. Here's what they want:

1. Provide shots that I have taken, or will take of the group to be used in a local newspaper, their website, brochures, and a newsletter.

2. Take pictures of the group at Carnegie Hall and provide these shots for the same purpose as above.

This appears to be a continuation of a discussion started on this thread. Glad to know things are moving ahead.

As for prices, and as a rank amateur myself, your suggestions sound reasonable given your experience and their budget. I charged similar for some shots for the web that the place I take my dog for training wanted.

Yeah, it is a continuation of that thread. Thanks for the input.

Stefan

To note, it is not your responsibility to worry about whether or not a model release is needed. It is the responsibility of the orchestra. You are not the one that is publishing the images. You only need to make it known in your contract that you do not have signed model releases and that it is the responsibility of the client to determine if they are needed for their usage.

Well, I just learned that another photographer will be doing the job. This person is supposedly a full time pro photographer and agreed to do it for free. So I lose out. She is apparently a friend of the person who I contacted about the job.

Stefan