Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 11 Jan 2009 (Sunday) 12:54
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

RAW only and Histograms

 
David ­ Ransley
Senior Member
Avatar
673 posts
Gallery: 3 photos
Likes: 14
Joined Aug 2008
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
     
Jan 11, 2009 12:54 |  #1

Here is a little tip I noticed on the Canon CPN site.

If you only shoot RAW files this is a handy tip. Half the total image data is contained in the first stop on the right of the histogram. To prevent losing this information, the rule is always to expose as far to the right of the histogram as possible. EOS camera histograms and the flashing highlight warnings on the rear screen are based on jpeg data, as processed out by the camera. What this means is, if you are shooting RAW, you have more latitude in the highlights than the camera suggests. You can afford to overexpose the highlights slightly, even if the highlight warning is flashing. We're not talking stops, but 1/3 to 1/2 a stop can make the difference between a good picture and a great one. Try it and see.

Has anybody noticed a benefit or tried this tip?


DRH

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
DunnoWhen
Goldmember
Avatar
1,748 posts
Likes: 14
Joined Mar 2006
Location: South Wales
     
Jan 11, 2009 13:02 |  #2

Welcome to "Chimpers Anonymous".:)


My wisdom is learned from the experience of others.
...

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
David ­ Ransley
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
Avatar
673 posts
Gallery: 3 photos
Likes: 14
Joined Aug 2008
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
     
Jan 11, 2009 13:19 |  #3

DunnoWhen wrote in post #7052996 (external link)
Welcome to "Chimpers Anonymous".:)

1. I'm not the best on this site.
2. I chimp
3. Everyone chimps.
4. the places I go some of the others also..chimp
5. Those who say they dont chimp..chimp.


:D


DRH

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Perry ­ Ge
Batteries? We don't need no...   . . . or cards.
Avatar
12,266 posts
Gallery: 83 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 291
Joined Jul 2007
Location: Hong Kong
     
Jan 11, 2009 14:01 |  #4

The information you posted is 100% correct and quite well known general knowledge - Picture Styles are applied to create an embedded JPEG, which you see on the LCD, and from which the histogram is generated. But it's good knowledge so it never hurts to have it out there again.

David Ransley wrote in post #7053087 (external link)

5. Those who say they dont chimp..chimp.


:D

I guarantee you that when I shoot film, I most definitely do not chimp :p.


Perry | www.perryge.com (external link) | flickr (external link) | C&C always welcome | Market Feedback & Gear | Sharpening sticky | Perspective sticky

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
bohdank
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
14,060 posts
Likes: 6
Joined Jan 2008
Location: Montreal, Canada
     
Jan 11, 2009 17:00 |  #5

That's why I have my Picture Style set to Nuetral in camera. It's the closest you are going to get to the RAW histogram.


Bohdan - I may be, and probably am, completely wrong.
Gear List

Montreal Concert, Event and Portrait Photographer (external link)
Flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Adorama says I'm "packed."
Avatar
13,410 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 763
Joined May 2004
Location: USA
     
Jan 11, 2009 17:02 |  #6

perryge wrote in post #7053328 (external link)
The information you posted is 100% correct and quite well known general knowledge - Picture Styles are applied to create an embedded JPEG, which you see on the LCD, and from which the histogram is generated. But it's good knowledge so it never hurts to have it out there again.

I guarantee you that when I shoot film, I most definitely do not chimp :p.

But I frequently used Polaroids.


TANSTAAFL--The Only Unbreakable Rule in Photography

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tzalman
Fatal attraction.
Avatar
13,483 posts
Likes: 201
Joined Apr 2005
Location: Gesher Haziv, Israel
     
Jan 11, 2009 17:12 |  #7

perryge wrote in post #7053328 (external link)
I guarantee you that when I shoot film, I most definitely do not chimp :p.

Is checking how many shots are left on the roll considered chimping?


Elie / אלי

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Field ­ of ­ 33
Member
Avatar
245 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Jan 2008
Location: Champaign, IL
     
Jan 11, 2009 17:35 as a reply to  @ tzalman's post |  #8

Anyone care to explain "chimp" and "chimping"?


-Paul Dalbey
Canon EOS 7D | BG-E7 | Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC | Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 | Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L | Speedlite 430 EX II

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
casaaviocar
Senior Member
Avatar
887 posts
Joined Jun 2006
     
Jan 11, 2009 17:44 |  #9

Field of 33 wrote in post #7054713 (external link)
Anyone care to explain "chimp" and "chimping"?

Actually DunnoWhen's, comment isn't really appropriate to the OPs "Expose Right" tip. I never look at the photo when I look at my LCD, I look at the histogram exclusively.

Chimping is looking at your screen to see what you've just taken and ooh ooh ooohing and Ah Ah Ahhhing over the screen. Checking your histogram after a shot is one of the best things you can do to insure a properly exposed photo when using your in camera meter.


Rule books are paper they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal -ekg-

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
dave ­ kadolph
"Fix the cigarette lighter"
Avatar
6,138 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Joined Mar 2007
Location: West Michigan--166.33 miles to the Cook County courthouse
     
Jan 11, 2009 18:07 as a reply to  @ casaaviocar's post |  #10

Chimping--Look HERE (external link)

A prime chance for a Rick Roll--but the real deal:)


Middle age is when you can finally afford the things that a young man could truly enjoy.
Tools of the trade

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tonylong
...winded
Avatar
54,657 posts
Gallery: 60 photos
Likes: 546
Joined Sep 2007
Location: Vancouver, WA USA
     
Jan 11, 2009 18:45 |  #11

Like the others have said, this is good, established advice for RAW shooters. I'ts called "Expose To The Right".

A couple notes:

First, this is not recommended for jpeg shooting, because once a camera processor creates a jpeg, all "unused" RAW data is discarded, so making significant adjustments in exposure levels can create unsatisfactory artifacts. Plus, the brightest highlights (ones that would flash in the histogram) are discarded when creating the jpeg, whereas, as the OP stated, some amount is retained in the RAW data.

Note number two is that when using this method you still have to pay attention to your highlights -- it's still possible to blow out highlights and you need to make sure that you are not overestimating the RAW highlight recovery capability.

An example where I am especially conscious of preserving highlight detail is when I'm shooting a scene with bright clouds (snow would be another example). I typically want my exposure to retain good cloud/snow detail, even if some of the scene comes out a touch dark. In this kind of scene I'll favor a low ISO and if need be a tripod or other good support because I'll end up needing to boost the shadows a bit, but I'd rather do that than lose the highlight detail.

In the above, I'm still "ETTR" in principle, but with great care to bring the bright highlights to the edge but not over the edge. In this example you might see more of the image to the left of the histogram center than you'd like, but that again with RAW is more easily recovered in post processing.


Tony
Two Canon cameras (5DC, 30D), three Canon lenses (24-105, 100-400, 100mm macro)
Tony Long Photos on PBase (external link)
Wildlife project pics here (external link), Biking Photog shoots here (external link), "Suburbia" project here (external link)! Mount St. Helens, Mount Hood pics here (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Adorama says I'm "packed."
Avatar
13,410 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 763
Joined May 2004
Location: USA
     
Jan 11, 2009 20:32 |  #12

tzalman wrote in post #7054564 (external link)
Is checking how many shots are left on the roll considered chimping?

Only if you use the advanced technique of opening the back very quickly to check the number of shots remaining.


TANSTAAFL--The Only Unbreakable Rule in Photography

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Adorama says I'm "packed."
Avatar
13,410 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 763
Joined May 2004
Location: USA
     
Jan 11, 2009 20:37 as a reply to  @ RDKirk's post |  #13

If you have the camera set to blink the out-of-range highlights, the OP is pointing out that this is a JPEG setting, and some of those blinking highlights will actually be saved in the RAW image.

But to get a good exposure that not only saves the highlights but also reduces noise and extends shadow detail (at least to the maximum ability of the sensor), pay attention to [B}which[/B] highlights are blinking.

Select the blinking tone that represents "the brightest tone that must retain detail" and adjust the exposure so that tone is just barely below the blink level if you're shooting JPEG and just at or slightly over the blinking level if you're shooting RAW.

"The brightest tone that must retain detail" is most often a textured white, but it's really up to the photographer to choose the tone he wants that to be.


TANSTAAFL--The Only Unbreakable Rule in Photography

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
David ­ Ransley
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
Avatar
673 posts
Gallery: 3 photos
Likes: 14
Joined Aug 2008
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
     
Jan 11, 2009 23:01 |  #14

Chimping Definition provided at http://en.wikipedia.or​g/wiki/Chimping (external link)

Thanks, I started looking at the Histogram and shoot in RAW, but never actually realised that RAW had the ability to recover some highlights. Coupled with LiveView shooting, where the histogram can be viewed on the LCD, it provides the photographer some good information.

Other than that, one would have to go for HDR photography with multiple shots at different exposures. This will obviously not do for all scenarios.


DRH

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Panopeeper
Senior Member
774 posts
Joined May 2008
     
Jan 12, 2009 01:00 |  #15

David Ransley wrote in post #7056761 (external link)
never actually realised that RAW had the ability to recover some highlights

Caution with the term recovery.

There is a limited possibility to reconstruct blown (saturated) pixels based on their surrounding; this is rather guesswork with the current raw processors. This can be done only in raw format, before demosaicing.

The other usage has nothing to do with recovering anything. The "straightforward" processing of in-camera JPEG leads automatically to the loss of contrast in the very highlights; everything in the top region seems to be flat and blown. When processing the raw data, nothing needs to be recovered, as the original data is there, only the JPEG processing messes it up.

This may appear as irrelevant semantics, but IMO it is important to understand, what is happening.


Gabor

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

2,353 views & 0 likes for this thread
RAW only and Histograms
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is reximus
835 guests, 309 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.