Copyright battle over Obama picture

LBaldwin wrote in post #7327669
The AP can go ahead and sue Fairey, but in order to win anything other than base price for the image they have to show that it was registered prior to the infringement or soon after. And in order to get any real DAMAGES (where the real cash is) they have to show that the infringement caused a lessening or lowering of the value of the image. Since AP charges very little for most publications that may be tough to prove.

In other words, even if the courts find that Fairey infringed the CR, AP may not even get their costs re-imbursed...

Just another aspect to this story.

Interesting.
Actually...the way AP and Fairey keep throwing cr*p at each other, we might all be fighting over the various facets of this for ages!
Think I'll have a cup of coffee and a cake....

Ok I'll be right over!! The funny thing is, if Fairey wanted the image he could have contacted AP and gotten limited rights to it for very little compared to what it may cost now. I think they might charge 250 or some such amount at the very most, since I am sure that there was a sequence of shots. The whole thing is, this just a publicity stunt to get his name out there, and it worked. He will get lots of business for other works and probably more than a few patrons with special requests. This will far outweigh any costs associated with the suit, since I am sure he poor mouthed the legal beagles that work for him..

What kind of cake?

LBaldwin wrote in post #7328181
Ok I'll be right over!! The funny thing is, if Fairey wanted the image he could have contacted AP and gotten limited rights to it for very little compared to what it may cost now. I think they might charge 250 or some such amount at the very most, since I am sure that there was a sequence of shots. The whole thing is, this just a publicity stunt to get his name out there, and it worked. He will get lots of business for other works and probably more than a few patrons with special requests. This will far outweigh any costs associated with the suit, since I am sure he poor mouthed the legal beagles that work for him..

What kind of cake?

We've a choice for you, LB: Japanese Green Tea (Macha) Cake with Adzuki Bean paste - delicious, but takes some getting used to - or the classics, Chocolate, Cheesecake or Dried Fruit & Brandy.


But to comment on your post, yes, publicity/exposure recently seem to be something that many people in the public eye are very proficient at increasing. Think it was Sir Oscar Wilde who said there's only one thing worse than being talked about, and that's not being talked about.

I'm pretty sure AP now realize this case is blowing up into a mess. It won't go away cleanly, and since the Very Popular President Obama campaign is "visibly" if not "actually" associated with this - and we all know he's one for the people - many folks (US citizens or otherwise) are just looking at this in a "Big Fish wants to eat Little Fish", way.

Almost makes me want to feel sorry for AP.
[I did say "almost"]


btw, is that you doing the inverted flight in your Avatar?

Yes, I have been an aviation photographer since childhood, and that is a West Coast Airshow performer named Rocky Hill. We were flying in tight formation and he just inverted his A/C and snuggled right up!! I had our pilot drop down a skoosch to get clean sky and shot away!! I have probably 2-300 A/A shoots from all kinds of A/C. It don't pay squat like shooting software boxes but it really gets my jollys off!!

Domo - Domo

LBaldwin wrote in post #7328489
Yes, I have been an aviation photographer since childhood, and that is a West Coast Airshow performer named Rocky Hill. We were flying in tight formation and he just inverted his A/C and snuggled right up!! I had our pilot drop down a skoosch to get clean sky and shot away!! I have probably 2-300 A/A shoots from all kinds of A/C. It don't pay squat like shooting software boxes but it really gets my jollys off!!

Domo - Domo

Can I paint it? Please, with sugar and gumbdrops on top?

tonylong wrote in post #7328498
Can I paint it? Please, with sugar and gumbdrops on top?

Sorry Tony it's 5am and I am heading home brain no work good?

Paint what?

DDCSD wrote in post #7314412
I might have to disagree. The only difference between the painting and photo (besides the stylizing) is that Fairey rounded off some edges and moved the neck/suit a bit.

[GIFS ARE NOT RENDERED IN QUOTES]

Sorry, that is more than simply being inspired. It is a blatant copy.

This fight is about money, plain and simple.

The artist will raise a defense, to the best of his ability to pay for it, and the AP will send big-gun, >$350/hr litigators who are better all-around, if they're smart.

it looks to me,, as if this jack@ss "street artist" (just another name for a punk that likes to tag things with a can of spray paint!) ran the photo through an illustrator program,, printed them out on cards to make his STENCILS!!!! so he could run around putting this crap all over everything!! all this thinly veiled political obama celebrating is getting rather old here,,, :O/... and no I am not a right wing whacko, nor a left wing Marxist,,, I am a Patriot,,, I have fought for ALL Americans rights!

LBaldwin wrote in post #7328489
Yes, I have been an aviation photographer since childhood....It don't pay squat like shooting software boxes but it really gets my jollys off!!

Excellent! My father was a priest in the Royal Air Force from when I was 13 to his retirement 7 years ago, so I've been an aircraft-addict (up in them, not just looking at them) for the greater part of my life. Duff eyesight meant I couldn't be a "real" pilot, so my jollys are had via paragliding. Been pilot-rated for 5 years and flying 13 years this summer. You can't beat being up in the big-blue....

S.Horton wrote in post #7329624
This fight is about money, plain and simple.

Of course. Sad, isn't it.

speedypalomino wrote in post #7329842
it looks to me,, as if this jack@ss "street artist" (just another name for a punk that likes to tag things with a can of spray paint!) ran the photo through an illustrator program,, printed them out on cards to make his STENCILS......all this thinly veiled political Obama celebrating is getting rather old here....and no I am not a right wing whacko, nor a left wing Marxist....I am a Patriot....I have fought for ALL Americans rights!

Hey there Speedy! If you read this thread the whole way through, you'll see that politics has been mostly avoided. It's only personal insults against other POTN members allowed here. So....just as a test of how level-headed you are, how many native American Indian's rights have you fought for recently? Been down the ol' reservation recently?

No, no, no.....I'm only messing with you. I respect your "patriotism".

One point of "Obama" in this thread and in the AP case, IMO, is that he's seen (worldwide) as a "normal" guy whose aim is to get the USA back on it's feet. Fairey ("The Jackass Street Punk") is seen by many as a "normal" guy who made an attempt to reach out to the disillusioned youth of America who tended to be non-voters, calling them, via his street art to vote for Obama, who could get the USA back on it's feet (his words, not mine). You spot the association, yes?
To many people, myself included, Fairey's act warrants more respect than that of AP; and the case in point has drawn attention to a side of the law which favours "big-men" with "big-money", no matter the consequences to "normal" people.
As S.Horton said, "it's all about money". And that sucks - for ALL of us.

Oh, I forgot the free PR part, too.

AP wants to remain relevant in a declining print market.

;}

ya,,, I understand his point,, I just dont agree with his methods,,, I admit I havent had tha' time to read the whole thread,, I'm a dairy farmer who doesnt have much free time,,, busy providing milk for Americans ya know!! ,,, and as far as the "native Americans" go,,, less than a mile from our farm is an Indian casino they have more rights and freedoms than most realize,, and I had no problem fighting for those rights as well,,, I as well as many others have fought long and hard,, many others to their last breath to uphold the Constitution of our land, no matter who sits in the big chair,,, I just wish people would stop taking it for granted,, thats all,,, I'm just growing weary of all the grandstanding,,, thanks for listening!!

skygod44 wrote in post #7326048
No, my main focus is that the "money is all that matters" approach to anything and everything, is destroying the very essence of what makes us humans.

I seriously doubt that the Associated Press is pursuing this for the sake of money. For one thing, Fairey's pockets aren't deep enough to be worth the trouble, and their attorneys will probably cost more than anything they might actually be able to extract from the guy (no matter what the judgment might turn out to be).

I suspect their motive is to make sure we maintain a clear meaning of what constitutes copying. The fact that this thread includes so much argument is an indication of how much understanding of and regard for copyright law has diminished over the years. Plagiarism is an an all-time high, and ripping stuff off the Internet is pandemic.

A case like this can create a point of clarity in case law that can be used in other cases. Remember that the U.S. justice system is based on precedence.

And the problem with copyright law really have no effect on this case. This would have been considered copying in the early days of copyright law, and probably with more clarity that we have seen here. A painted copy of a pen-and-ink drawing would have been obvious copying, despite the huge differences in the two media, without the distraction that a photograph is made by a photographer and a painting is made by a painter. We really undermine the value of photography as art when we declare that copying a photograph using paint is different than copying a photograph using, say, a Xerox machine.

But I'm also sure there is much that doesn't meet the eye here. The usual procedure is that when a copyright holder sees what he believes to be an infringement, he sends a cease-and-desist letter to the infringer, with the request to pay a license fee. If the infringer responds, "Oh, heck, I didn't realize that was an infringement, and I will cease and desist immediately. I was not paid for the work and have gained nothing from it..." then the final result is usually some VERY tiny nominal settlement so that the case law is not violated (money was paid for the use, etc.). I know a couple of people in the music biz to whom this has happened. One made an arrangement of a protected work, sold some copies of it, received the cease and desist demand, and ended up paying about $20 to make it go away. Everyone was happy, even if my friend grumbled at not being able to use the work. He at least realized that he had unwittingly infringed on a copyright.

My suspicion is that Fairey is also trying to establish a new point in case law, and possibly has some backing to fight the case. That makes this about the principle of the matter, and specifically NOT about the money.

Rick "doubting that anyone will win financially except some lawyers" Denney

I think you are giving Fairey too much credit there Rick... I agree with everything else you said though.

monty28428 wrote in post #7332486
I think you are giving Fairey too much credit there Rick... I agree with everything else you said though.

Could be--I didn't really look into it much. But it may be that the lawyers representing him (who seem to be doing it pro bono) also represent organizations that want to change copyright law. They might be the ones willing to fight it on his behalf in the interest of establishing a new precedent. But I still wonder if he didn't just toss that original cease and desist demand, rather than trying to work something out in good faith.

Good faith is important in court, by my observation. The AP will win no points with either a jury or a judge if they went on the attack mode with a full lawsuit without having provided reasonable notice to their suspected infringer. That's why I'd be astounded if they didn't send him a simple demand letter at the outset. I don't know a thing about Fairey, but he must have put up some resistance for it to have gotten this far.

Rick "who has been on both sides of this process" Denney

Actually the AP were quite fair with him from the outset and nearly had it settled out of court when Fairey went and filed against the AP. The guy has nerve that is for sure.