Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Guest
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Community Talk, Chatter & Stuff General Photography Talk 
Thread started 19 Feb 2009 (Thursday) 19:20
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

Shot with Nikon today...

 
shooter ­ mcgavin
Senior Member
Avatar
526 posts
Likes: 2
Joined Nov 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
     
Mar 08, 2009 07:51 |  #46

I recently bought a D200, and the build is pretty amazing. I'm kind of missing my old 20D though because of some of Canon's lenses and the camera's sensor :(

tharmsen wrote in post #7368256 (external link)
I think we're coming close to reaching that plateau where major advancements in technology are going to be few and far between.

I disagree. Look at where digital imaging has gone in the last 5 years, or where photographic equipment in general has gone in the last 20. Perhaps we're reaching a plateau where advances in digital imaging as we know it is concerned, but I'm willing to bet something new will be introduced that will blow even the best cameras today out of the water, much like any professional dslr has done today to even the best 35mm body.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
rdenney
Rick "who is not suited for any one title" Denney
2,400 posts
Likes: 3
Joined Jun 2003
     
Mar 09, 2009 12:47 |  #47

shooter mcgavin wrote in post #7478931 (external link)
Look at where digital imaging has gone in the last 5 years, or where photographic equipment in general has gone in the last 20. Perhaps we're reaching a plateau where advances in digital imaging as we know it is concerned, but I'm willing to bet something new will be introduced that will blow even the best cameras today out of the water, much like any professional dslr has done today to even the best 35mm body.

Where there is room for improvement is in dynamic range, noise, and sensitivity. Moore's Law doesn't apply to the optics--those are constrained by cost and physics--but it does apply to the sensor, and moreso to the processor. For example, right now we can do an HDR with three images made by bracketing. It might be possible to do this during a normal exposure by more complex processing and management of the sensor. So, even if the sensors don't improve exponentially, the processor's ability to derive more from the sensor will.

Storage is always an issue, even with storage capacities following Moore's Law (and beyond). But at some point we just won't need more megapixels, and storing them will be an annoyance, so there will be better ways to summarize (i.e. compress) the data in the camera and computer. Raw is already a more compact format than TIFF or PSD, for example. And we might learn to take advantage of having more megapixels by doing averaging (instead of interpolation) that will improve the fidelity of the image without merely increasing its pixel count.

That might be the solution for noise, for example. Noise is a random artifact applied on top of the pixel's response to light. But if we had, say, ten times as many pixels in that same area (I'll pick 5 microns to provide an approximate resolution of 100 lines/mm), we'd need a .5-micron pixel pitch. That's about 100 times as many pixels as we have now in a full-frame sensor. We think that storing 3500 megapixels is beyond consideration, but we used to think the same of 35 megapixels (which is not unusual in medium-format sensors). Moore's Law will take care of that. But the progress will be in the realization that we don't even want to store all those pixels. If we averaged 3.5 billion pixels into 35 million pixels, each pixel we print would include 100 pixels in the sensor. If the noise is distributed randomly (and even if the noise is severe, which it will be just because so few photons will be measured), we'd be averaging it out over 100 samples. That could increase dynamic range considerably my improving the signal/noise ratio, and be a way to take advantage of Moore's Law without running into the limits of optics.

And I can see a time when a manufacturer plugs a lens into a test apparatus that measures and records that particular lens's performance characteristics, which is read and corrected by the camera at exposure time. That is also using software to work around physical limitations.

Rick "who already improves images by downsampling them" Denney


The List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
René ­ Damkot
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
39,856 posts
Likes: 8
Joined Feb 2005
Location: enschede, netherlands
     
Mar 09, 2009 14:55 |  #48

rdenney wrote in post #7487350 (external link)
If we averaged 3.5 billion pixels into 35 million pixels, each pixel we print would include 100 pixels in the sensor.

Isn't that what pixel bining does?


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpace (external link)
Get Colormanaged (external link)
Twitter (external link)
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
rdenney
Rick "who is not suited for any one title" Denney
2,400 posts
Likes: 3
Joined Jun 2003
     
Mar 09, 2009 15:59 |  #49

René Damkot wrote in post #7488232 (external link)
Isn't that what pixel bining does?

Whazzat?

Rick "who doesn't follow the digital imaging lit" Denney


The List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
René ­ Damkot
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
39,856 posts
Likes: 8
Joined Feb 2005
Location: enschede, netherlands
     
Mar 09, 2009 22:01 |  #50

Dunno really :lol:
Post #8 and on: Thread


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpace (external link)
Get Colormanaged (external link)
Twitter (external link)
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
rdenney
Rick "who is not suited for any one title" Denney
2,400 posts
Likes: 3
Joined Jun 2003
     
Mar 10, 2009 11:26 |  #51

René Damkot wrote in post #7491264 (external link)
Dunno really :lol:
Post #8 and on: Thread

A variation on my speculation.

But a principle of my speculation is that the pixel pitch is far below the reasonable resolution limit of the lens. Using the image at full resolution would therefore run into optical limitations. Rather than deal with all those pixels, I could see where combining them such that the resulting pixel pitch didn't exceed the optical capabilities might have other benefits.

In the thread you linked, Chuck Westphal reported no benefit. But his test is empirical and I think there needs to be more science. Plus, the sensors he tested didn't have a pixel pitch far in excess of optical limitations, so the full-res image had better optical quality than the downsampled image.

It may be that the statistical variation of pixels that small is so great that the resulting average variation after combining is no better than if larger pixels had been used in the first place. That's a scientific study that can possibly benefit from technological improvements.

I'm just wondering if there is an advantage to having a sensor with much higher pixel pitch than can be exploited by the optics. I don't think we've yet scratched the surface of what can be achieved with processing at the micro-pixel level.

Rick "speculating that Moore's Law is still in effect" Denney


The List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

6,469 views & 0 likes for this thread, 32 members have posted to it.
Shot with Nikon today...
FORUMS Community Talk, Chatter & Stuff General Photography Talk 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Forums   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset   •  Home

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.58forum software
version 2.58 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is Frankie Frankenberry
1692 guests, 134 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15,144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.