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Thread started 30 Mar 2009 (Monday) 10:49
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Question about exposing for highlights

 
samueli
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Mar 30, 2009 10:49 |  #1

Hi,

I'm trying to nail down the technical part of exposing for highlights in manual mode. I recently upgraded to a 50D and the biggest reason was for the center weighted metering option.

I can easily expose for highlights using the exposure lock, but what about manual mode? I can still meter on the highlight, but do I then re-meter with my real composition and compensate via shutter speed the difference between the two meter values? That's kind of what I'm doing now, but depending on the "oppourtunity" I may bracket as well.




  
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Mike
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Mar 30, 2009 11:02 |  #2

I find the easiest way to do it is to meter any way you like, take a shot and then look at the histogram. If I'm needing more in the highlight range I know to drop the shutter speed/open the aperture/up the ISO a bit more.

Read here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorial​s/expose-right.shtml (external link)
and here: https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=89123


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Mar 30, 2009 20:44 |  #3

:D Mike beat me to it! Thanks!


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Mar 30, 2009 21:11 as a reply to  @ PhotosGuy's post |  #4

Another way is to fill your viewfinder with the highlight or something equally as bright and meter off that..

BTW,,why do you want to expose for the highlights only??


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Mike
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Mar 31, 2009 02:12 |  #5

PhotosGuy wrote in post #7632947 (external link)
:D Mike beat me to it! Thanks!

Haha! No problems Frank! :D


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samueli
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Mar 31, 2009 11:30 |  #6

Thanks for all the replies! I thought there would a more mathematical way to do it in manual mode, without the ability to use exposure lock.

yogestee wrote in post #7633156 (external link)
BTW,,why do you want to expose for the highlights only??

I don't really. I read this in some thread as one of the basic rules of thumb for photography - "expose for highlights". Sometimes I will expose both highlights and shadows and try a capture of each. I'm just trying to figure out a way to do this technically. Plus, I've only had spot/center weighted metering for a few weeks, with my new 50D.

I had read in another article that center weighted metering is really the only way to go, and have seen some creative uses of metering on a certain part of an image, locking the metering, then capturing the whole image where the metering would be different.

It's just that in manual mode, there is no exposure lock. So if you meter on a certain area, then recompose/focus, what is the math? In manual mode there is a missing variable to needed add/subtract stops. Or do you meter on several areas of the photo and figure out from there?




  
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Mar 31, 2009 11:34 |  #7

samueli wrote in post #7629342 (external link)
Hi,

I'm trying to nail down the technical part of exposing for highlights in manual mode. I recently upgraded to a 50D and the biggest reason was for the center weighted metering option.

I can easily expose for highlights using the exposure lock, but what about manual mode? I can still meter on the highlight, but do I then re-meter with my real composition and compensate via shutter speed the difference between the two meter values? That's kind of what I'm doing now, but depending on the "oppourtunity" I may bracket as well.

BTW, your 50D has a mode which 'protects' highlights. The downside of using that is that ISO 100 is not available when the highlight protection is set.


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Mike
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Mar 31, 2009 11:41 |  #8

samueli wrote in post #7637003 (external link)
It's just that in manual mode, there is no exposure lock. So if you meter on a certain area, then recompose/focus, what is the math?

There is no exposure lock because the camera is not controlling anything. Exposure lock only comes into play when you use Av/Tv/P etc as the camera is deciding at least 1 of the settings. In M you have full control. Therefore, if you meter for a particular spot and dial in the settings yourself for correct exposure it then doesn't matter where you look with the camera as the settings will remain as you dialled them in.


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Mar 31, 2009 12:23 |  #9

First of all, I hope you have followed the pointers others have left you in this thread -- fundamentals and specifics about exposure have been worked through many times, and you can get more info by following earlier discussions than a single thread will produce. I'd also encourage you to look at the bottom of this page, in the "related threads" section, and read through the various threads to pick up other thoughts.

samueli wrote in post #7637003 (external link)
Thanks for all the replies! I thought there would a more mathematical way to do it in manual mode, without the ability to use exposure lock.

Well, I don't know how practical a "mathematical" approach is -- Ansel Adams, working with large format film and specific light meters developed the "Zone System" to identify specific "zones" of light in an image and incorporate them in his exposures, but he also did serious post-processing to fully develop his images. With our smaller/digital format we don't see the same range and you don't see much discussion about the Zone System in actual practice. The idea of metering for highlights (and/or shadows and/or midtones) is still very active, though.

A common "starting point" from the "old days" was the "Sunny 16 Rule", in which you took the idea that on a sunlit scene you could use f/16 and then a shutter speed that was 1/ISO and get a good exposure, but then you have to modify each of your settings according to the particular scene and your requirements as far as specific shutter speed needs, aperture/depth of field needs, and ISO/dynamic range or speed needs. You end up often with settings that don't seem to resemble the Sunny 16 idea much!

I don't really. I read this in some thread as one of the basic rules of thumb for photography - "expose for highlights". Sometimes I will expose both highlights and shadows and try a capture of each. I'm just trying to figure out a way to do this technically. Plus, I've only had spot/center weighted metering for a few weeks, with my new 50D.

I had read in another article that center weighted metering is really the only way to go, and have seen some creative uses of metering on a certain part of an image, locking the metering, then capturing the whole image where the metering would be different.

It's just that in manual mode, there is no exposure lock. So if you meter on a certain area, then recompose/focus, what is the math? In manual mode there is a missing variable to needed add/subtract stops. Or do you meter on several areas of the photo and figure out from there?

One of the conveniences of Manual mode is that you don't have to use exposure lock continuously -- you lock in your settings, period, and only change them when the lighting of the scene or your orientation to the lighting changes.

There are a few practical approaches to using manual that can arrive at the same place -- a good exposure that will take in highlight as well as shadow areas. This involves using your spot (or at least center weighted) meter and identifying an area of a consistent tone in the same lighting that illuminates your scene that you can reasonably identify and adjusting your settings accordingly -- telling the camera that this item is, say, medium or light or dark. You can use various things -- the palm of your hand, a gray card, a white sheet of paper, the sky, snow, as long as you know how the camera should interpret that object.

If left to automatic exposure, the camera tries to interpret everything as "medium" so that, for expample, if you let the camera expose for snow, it would turn the snow gray in the exposure. You have to know that, and, depending on the lighting of the scene, adjust your settings to interpret the snow as bright.

Once you have a balanced setting for the scene as a whole, you can shoot away unless, like I said, the scene lighting changes or your orientation to the light changes.

As far as exposing for the highlights (or in other cases shadows), you can do the above, but you are specifically metering an important highlight and using that to set your overall exposure. In the "snow" example, you want to expose the scene so that the snow will be white, but not "blown white" without any detail, so you set your camera so that the meter scele when metering the snow reads up to but not against your right edge.

Sometimes, when "exposing for highlights" you may find that other parts of the scene are darker than you would visualize, and when I'm against that type of high contrast dynamic, well, first of all RAW is a real necessity, then, I'd pay real good attention to the right side of your histogram, making sure that those highlights are really nudging the right side. Third, I would shoot that scene with the lowest ISO possible because you will get the cleanest results bringing up the shadows in your RAW converter with a low ISO.

As a whole, try to keep it simple so that you can think and act quickly. For handheld shooting, I like the statement "PhotosGuy" FrankC uses: First set your shutter speed and aperture to get the effect you want, then adjust your ISO to properly expose the scene. For shooting with a tripod with a static scene, I mix it a bit: first set the aperture and ISO you need, then adjust your shutter speed to expose the scene. But you want to keep it simple and practical!

Hope this helps a bit!


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tdodd
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Mar 31, 2009 13:44 |  #10

My approach - Spot meter off the brightest thing in the scene for which you want to retain highlight detail - perhaps a bright white cloud, sunlit snow or a sunlit wedding dress. Set a manual exposure that gives a reading of +3 stops above the centre. Shoot in raw and fire away.

If your camera is anything like mine you should find you get about 3 1/3 stops of leeway above a centred meter before you see signs of clipping. By shooting raw you have a bit more headroom to recover highlight detail above that. Thus, by shooting with the brightest thing of interest at +3 you pretty much maximise your ETTR exposure while keeping a small reserve in case you got your metered point wrong or the light changes a fraction.

If your camera meter only shows between +/- 2 stops then set your manual exposure to +2 and then simply add a further three clicks of something or other to increase the exposure by one more stop. The meter will blink but you will know where you are.




  
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rdenney
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Apr 01, 2009 00:34 |  #11

tdodd wrote in post #7637935 (external link)
My approach - Spot meter off the brightest thing in the scene for which you want to retain highlight detail - perhaps a bright white cloud, sunlit snow or a sunlit wedding dress. Set a manual exposure that gives a reading of +3 stops above the centre. Shoot in raw and fire away.

This is exactly correct. In Zone System parlance, you are measuring bits of the scene that you want to place on Zone VIII (highlights with texture). When you meter that, the camera wants to put those bits at Zone V (middle gray). So, you increase the exposure by three stops to expose it such that it will fall on Zone VIII.

To the OP: But don't misunderstand the principle you are quoting.

In the old days of shooting negatives, we worried about underexposure, because too much underexposure would leave a clear piece of plastic. And there's nothing you can do in the darkroom to print a clear piece of plastic as anything but solid black. So, we would always make sure we had enough exposure to provide texture in the shadows. If the highlights were then too bright for the film, we'd do something (filtration, pull development, etc.) to reduce the highlights. It was easier to pull the highlights than to make something out of that clear piece of plastic. We called this exposing for the shadows and developing for the highlights.

With slides, it was the opposite. If a slide is overexposed too much, it turns into a clear piece of plastic, and that's just a blank white screen when you project it. So, we would keep the exposure low enough to make sure the highlights didn't blow out, and just let the shadows go black if necessary. Black shadows were better than blown highlights.

Deciding which of the highlights not to blow was a decision (i.e., which highlights you place on Zone VIII--which has texture--versus Zone IX--which doesn't), and such decisions require experience and a clear visualization of your final presentation.

Digital is like slides. Once the highlights reach 255, they are gone for good. So, we make sure to keep the exposure low enough to avoid blowing out the highlights. Then, we bring up the shadows and middle tones as necessary in Photoshop. (That's why we shoot RAW--it gives you more ability to pull those dark bits up). If that approach isn't workable because the shadows are too dark in relation to the highlights, then we filter, use fill flash or reflectors, or choose a composition that doesn't show or require that particular highlight detail.

So, with digital, we expose for the highlights and post-process for the shadows. That's the same thing as pushing the exposure to the right.

The histogram is the best way to do it. Make an exposure, and check the histogram. If there is space between the histogram and the right end of the scale, dial in a little positive compensation. If you see the highlight warning on the display (you do have the highlight warning feature turned on, don't you?) and the histogram is jammed up against the right end of the scale, then dial in a little negative compensation. We used to do that with Polaroids.

Rick "Yogestee knows but forgot the bit about reducing the exposure three stops after metering on the highlight" Denney


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tzalman
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Apr 01, 2009 04:14 |  #12

Rick "Yogestee knows but forgot the bit about reducing the exposure three stops after metering on the highlight" Denney

Typo :p


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Apr 01, 2009 08:42 |  #13

The histogram is the best way to do it. Make an exposure, and check the histogram. If there is space between the histogram and the right end of the scale, dial in a little positive compensation. If you see the highlight warning on the display (you do have the highlight warning feature turned on, don't you?) and the histogram is jammed up against the right end of the scale, then dial in a little negative compensation.

Generally, that's all true & one way to work. Sooner or later though, you'll run up against something that has highlights that you don't care about & shadows that you do care about, like cars with chrome & black tires in the shadows of wheel wells, so Rick & I assume that a person will use their brain & decide what is important in the shot & what isn't? (Which is why there are so many different & creative ways of metering to get the same end result.)

So again, this is my "rule of hand" which works in most situations for me. I make exceptions as I think they're needed, & shooting RAW takes up the slack when I'm wrong.
Need an exposure crutch?


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rdenney
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Apr 01, 2009 09:31 |  #14

tzalman wrote in post #7642716 (external link)
Typo :p

Oops. Yes. That should be increasing the exposure. If you meter on the sky, it will try to turn that light sky into middle gray, which would be under-exposed. So, you increase the exposure by three stops.

Rick ":oops:" Denney


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rdenney
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Apr 01, 2009 09:40 |  #15

PhotosGuy wrote in post #7643522 (external link)
Generally, that's all true & one way to work. Sooner or later though, you'll run up against something that has highlights that you don't care about & shadows that you do care about, like cars with chrome & black tires in the shadows of wheel wells, so Rick & I assume that a person will use their brain & decide what is important in the shot & what isn't? (Which is why there are so many different & creative ways of metering to get the same end result.)

So again, this is my "rule of hand" which works in most situations for me. I make exceptions as I think they're needed, & shooting RAW takes up the slack when I'm wrong.
Need an exposure crutch?

Yes; I said that choosing which highlights to protect (i.e., place on Zone VIII) and which highlights to let blow out is an aesthetic decision.

The range of light in the scene is a variable. We can meter on the average of it, hoping that the extremes stay within the boundaries of the sensor. We can meter the shadows and hope the highlights don't blow out. We can meter the highlights and hope we having something left of the shadows. We decide which of the highlights can blow out, and which of the shadows don't need texture. That decision is one of the most important decisions we make as a photographer (still well behind where we point the camera and when we push the button, but important), and most of us leave it to the camera.

Metering of the hand is the same as metering on the average, except that we are providing a calibrated average instead of just hoping the scene adds up to a useful middle value.

The more one thinks about it, the more one understands why there was (and still is) a market for 1-degree spot meters. But the ability to study the histogram overcomes that need.

For shots of dynamic subjects, though, we want to get it right every time. So we instinctively learn where to point the camera when we make an exposure reading, and we learn where that AE Lock button is so that we don't lose that reading when we move the camera to capture the best composition. With averaging or center-weighted meters of old, I learned just how much sky I needed in the frame when taking a meter reading.

Rick "thinking we are scaring those newbies, heh, heh" Denney


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