So... threatened with legal action from first time client

(Kind of a long read)

Just to give you all the details to see how legit this truly is.

There is a startup website that was advertising for photographer needs. I emailed Thursday and they replied asking if I could cover events this weekend. Saturday and Sunday.

They listed four events.
These were free events, open to the public.
I was already planning to attend these events myself.

I said sure and they asked what my rates were based on work I did for other clients (websites and organizations). I did not quote what I got from those jobs, instead I said that I would let them (the new client) make me an offer what they thought was fair and we would move from there in negoiations. They never replied or made an offer. (YES I WAS STUPID TO STILL DO THE EVENT WITHOUT A SOLID OFFER. Or maybe it is to my favor they didn't make one.)

Also, I asked them for directions, locations and times to all four events. Which they sent me a hand typed email along with ads placed by other sponsors with the address, times, etc.. listed.

***I also asked them how they wanted me to submit the images to them. Via email, burned CD, ftp upload, etc.. (this is important to note here) but they never answered, despite me asking 3 times in email, once in person, once on phone***

They told me that they would have banners everywhere at the event and wanted pictures of people in front of their banners.

They asked me if I could stop on the way to the event and pick up their business cards that they just had rush service (paying extra) for at the printers. I said yes. My media/press badge would be available to pick up at that time from the same place. (since this client was a sponsor of the events and such)

Event 1 (the big one) started at noon. I planned on getting there at 10:30 to meet these people (since we never met, only email-phone talk), to scout the locations and best vantage point, help them out if needed, etc..

Ok, the interstate was completely closed down. 7 lanes shut. Everyone directed off the interstate. In Miami this is a HUGE problem. They had this on the news, no denying it or acting like I made it up (which they did).

So I called them twice to give them updates. I told them that I was arriving at 12, not 1030 because of the delay. (I was praying it was really 12 and I was lucky I got there at 1155) I asked them if I should still stop by and pick up business cards and media badge. They said NO just to go straight to Event 1. So I didn't pick them up, I went directly to Event 1 like they said.

Ok, Event 1 started, I was there. It was noon until 4.
Event 2 was 4-6. (same location as first event, basically a continuation) I went there and finally met the two site owners. They had just arrived at 5. I had spent all hours since noon trying to find all the banners they claimed they had out. No banners. I asked them about this and they said they didn't know why their banners were not displayed. (verbally confirming that there were no banners out). I asked them if I should go get cards and they said no to keep taking pictures. (again verbally instructing me what their needs were.) They gave me a media badge (which I wasn't sure how they got that from the printers and didn't pick up the cards either.) Then told me that in addition to the 4 events that we previously discussed that they *might* have additional events. Did not say for certain. Just "might".

Event 3 was at the Bentley Hotel from 6-9. They specifically told me Bently Hotel and gave me the address. All the ads for this event that ran on the net, in newspapers, etc.. all had Bently Hotel and the address listed. I went there and the event really was there. (imagine my confusion when they said it wasn't) It was a bust though. About 12 people showed up. No banners here either.

Event 4 was 7-10. I left Event 3 after 1.5 hours where I only took 2 photos. I arrived at Event 4 in ten minutes (these were all blocks from one another). No banners here either. No people either. About 20. The club owner told me that Saturdays he didn't get a crowd until after midnight. Now the sponsored event ended at 10. And he told me that after 10, it was a regular night and there were no sponsors for that time. I left at 930 and took 5 photos. (2 were of DJ and bar help)

I drive 45 minutes one way home.

Here is the problem(s), at least what they say.

1 - I never picked up the business cards. They admit they told me while I was stuck on the interstate not to. But they are acting like they don't remember me offering to do so when I met them at Event 2. They ignore the fact that instead of taking me up on my offer, they instead instructed me to walk around and take more pics. Their only response was "why didn't you just use your head??" (I did. That is why I asked them, not knowing if the place was still open that late Saturday or if they got them when they managed to get a media badge for me from the exact same place.)

2 - I didn't take any photos of people in front their banners. They didn't have banners up. Duh! They acknowledged this themselves. They got their banners up at 3 events which started after midnight. 3 events I did not confirm to cover. 3 events that were not on the email correspondence that they provided to me. They said they *might* have more events, but at no time did I commit myself to covering these.

3 - I didn't take photos at one of their events. I told them that there was not many people at Event 3 at the Bentley Hotel and they went ballistic. Claiming they had no events at the Bentley, that it was the Hilton Hotel and I didn't go to the right place and that their site manager spent all night waiting for me. After I pointed out that their email clearly said Bentley and the flyers they had listed on their website and all over town advertising this event clearly said Bently and even when I got there, the volunteers confirmed this was indeed the correct event, well they changed their tune and started claiming that "everyone and all the promoters actually call it the Hilton." I told them that I can 't read minds and that I went by the info I was given. And no matter what they called it, it was listed on the flyers and street address as the Bently and that their event was indeed there. They sort of half assed admitted that I was then at the right place after I mentioned that I had a photograph of the site manager that they claimed never met me. (one of her and one of me standing with her which ironically were the only two photos I took at that event). Apparently it seems they didn't even know where their own events were or even attended. Not to mention completely confused about me being there.

4 - That I failed to show up at the other events. The ones that were not on my schedule given to me by email. They said they called me at 8 to let me know. And to their credit they did, but I was in a bar and didn't hear my phone ring. Even on vibrate I didn't feel it because I had my camera on the R-strap tapping one side of my hip, my second body on my other hip in a lowepro toploader bag, and my flash and fisheye lens compartments on my backside. So I really didn't feel the vibrations. I saw it when I was outside and they didn't leave a message. I tried calling back 4 times and no answer. (they said they were in a club and didn't hear it. that excuse works for them, but not me apparently). Anyway, I drove back home after failing to reach them. But the thing is, I never said I would even be there. They should have not expected me to unless I specifically stated I would.

5 - That I contributed to the lackluster launch of their new website by failing to deliver the material they hired me for from the events I was to cover. They claim they took a big financial hit from their sponsors because of me failing to deliver photography work. In addition to the business card expense they paid and the cost of hiring me. (I have a big issue about the "hiring me" part.)

I find this offensive because first of all, they never gave me a way to deliver the material to them. I have no idea how they wanted it because I have no mailing address for a CD to be sent. The email address is fine if they wanted to wait 3 days while I sent over 600 images to that email account by sending them 4-5 at a time since they wanted high rez images. They had no idea what an FTP upload was. They never provide any login for me to upload the images directly to their site. Which because they wanted the material on their site first thing this morning, an FTP to them or a direct upload from my computer to their site was the only option. And they never answered this in multiple times that I asked.

Also, I did go to the events, but I have no control over how many people showed up. I went to the events at the times that was listed in their emails and advertisements. So I was there. I have pictures from there. Even if there were not many others there either.

They keep going on about how they hired me to do this and they didn't get their money's worth. Ok, first of all, they never paid me. I haven't been paid. Furthermore, I left the actual rate amount open to their offer which was never tendered. I told them to make me an offer that was in line with their expectations and we would go from there in working something out. Some clients pay a rate based on each event I go to (this would have been 4) or some clients pay a daily rate, no matter how many I cover. (this would be one flat rate for all day). So I don't consider myself hired or even owing them anything as this was an event I was going to myself anyway and it was free to attend. Not only that, all the up close photos of the entertainment and celebrities, and photos from restricted areas that I took was at Event 1 was BEFORE I got their media badge. I am already recognized by nearly every event promotor and staff since I have been doing this for 6 years. I didn't need their badge because everyone knew me and just waved me to come over and shoot. So they didn't score me special access or something.

Despite this, I have made requests twice today for them to provide me with a way to get the material to them. And they never answer, or even acknowledge the question.

I finally told them that further communication was not needed or desired because in addition to being somewhat belittling and insulting ("why didn't you use your head?", "how could you NOT know that?", "Can't you read the ad?") they were confusing themselves and contradicting the exact instructions that they had provided me with via email and verbally.

So their next one was "We are upset that our site failed to launch in regards to our expectations. Our attornies have been contacted and are ready to go" (even though it is a Sunday. )

Granted, this is a learning experience.

To be frank, sounds like you were dealing with HUGE morons.

Legal issues, I dunno... I kinda doubt it anything could ever come of it.

So what does the signed contract say? Doesn't sound like you had one, just verbal communications.

Nobody got paid, nobody had a contract, and nobody got any photos from you.

So far, no business has been conducted and nobody has grounds to sue for anything.

The next step is to find out how badly they want the photos and what they are willing to pay for them. Then get payment and deliver photos. Never deal with these people again.

Sounds like nothing happened to me, go on with life and if they harass you about it...press charges for harassment, simple as that.

Sucks about the fiasco, though, always be pre-paid, always have a contract and these stupid idiots don't get to take advantage of you

I would never go do a job without a clear understanding of my responsibilities to the client and an acknowledgment of their responsibilities to me. Even better is a signed contract.

Sounds like you have a good handle on how things transpired. I would piece together a timeline of events with all supporting documentation (emails and cell phone communications dates/times and reasons for communication) that you can for your attorney.

And don't do work without negotiating a rate BEFORE you do the work! Get these things in writing--even if it's one-sided and coming from you only. Hate to see a hard-working person get stiffed.

Let us know how things come out, will you?

dave

I like to have sit down consultations to iron out all the particulars.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. And for reading such a long post.

There was no written contract or agreed rate. They sent me an email with 4 events, with the location and times to visit each one. I did that.

I think their frustration is stemming from the fact that 3 of their events were complete busts and the one major one didn't even have their business / site advertised. Which is completely not my fault.

The thing is that even when they were complaining to me, I was still trying to get a way to get the images to them. And they simply ignored it all together. Like they didn't even want them, but was more interested in just complaining.

JeffreyG - yeah, that is exactly it. No contract, no business exchanged, no photos given. It was a free event so they can't even claim they got the cover charge waived or anything. And the photos from the restricted and backstage areas came because of myself, and my face recognition. Not because of them as I never had their media badge at the time.

Karl - good idea about the harassment. I have blocked their email address today after the 4th email to me complaining about how I was responsible for the fizzled out launch of their website.

Normally I would not have even bothered without a contract, but since I was already going there on my own, and was going to be taking pics anyway... it was a last minute thing (I had a gig Friday after my day job and couldn't have met with them then anyway), I was not expecting a result this negative.

Ahhhh well. I am sure everyone goes through something like this eventually.

It seems like they needed a scapegoat and you looked good to them for it. Too bad, sorry to hear about the crap that got laid on you. You went above and beyond in my opinion, some would have left at the first sign of trouble. It sucks, what else can be said?

Legal threats are cheap and are supposed to intimidate you. Don't let them.

ClickClick wrote in post #7763545
Thanks for all the replies everyone. And for reading such a long post.

There was no written contract or agreed rate. They sent me an email with 4 events, with the location and times to visit each one. I did that.

I think their frustration is stemming from the fact that 3 of their events were complete busts and the one major one didn't even have their business / site advertised. Which is completely not my fault.

The thing is that even when they were complaining to me, I was still trying to get a way to get the images to them. And they simply ignored it all together. Like they didn't even want them, but was more interested in just complaining.

JeffreyG - yeah, that is exactly it. No contract, no business exchanged, no photos given. It was a free event so they can't even claim they got the cover charge waived or anything. And the photos from the restricted and backstage areas came because of myself, and my face recognition. Not because of them as I never had their media badge at the time.

Karl - good idea about the harassment. I have blocked their email address today after the 4th email to me complaining about how I was responsible for the fizzled out launch of their website.

Normally I would not have even bothered without a contract, but since I was already going there on my own, and was going to be taking pics anyway... it was a last minute thing (I had a gig Friday after my day job and couldn't have met with them then anyway), I was not expecting a result this negative.

Ahhhh well. I am sure everyone goes through something like this eventually.

I wouldn't do that, just for records sake.

The only problem that I can forsee coming from this mess is somebody giving you a bad reputation 'just cause'

If they never paid you, whats the problem? Sounds like they're doing a good job of making their "new website" go bust on their own. At this point, if they want the photos, you should charge them at least twice the figure you had in mind before all of this. If they have published any of the photos, make sure to get the removed, as they have not paid you for the photos OR your services. Counter their legal threats with the threat of a copyright infringement suit if they have published.

Call their bluff. I would ask them to provide all relevant documentation, contracts, and instructions to you and their attorney, and to have the attorney contact you. i doubt it'll go that far, but the attorney will hopefully be more reasonable and see that they're talking sh**.

The part that amazes me is that despite their obvious mistakes and bad luck at organizing their event which can be chalked up to newbie mistakes in a field (web promotion and event hosting) that is new to them, people were willing to work with them to try to help them overcome their own bad planning.

They are not only totally new to event hostings and promotions, but total newbies to websites in general. One was in the mortgage biz the other was on state funds (disability). While you give them credit for getting out and starting their own business, you also have to expect that they know just a little bit about the business they are entering as well. That is not unreasonable. Just an example of this... In the last nasty email they sent me, when I pointed out that I had asked repeatly and brought up the subject of how to submit the photos to them for their website. I told them that I could supply all images by four methods. 1 - by burning a CD and mailing or delivering it to them. 2 - By emailing the images, but it would require me zipping the files and transfering them by YouSendIt.com and they would need something like Winzip or Winrar to unzip it so I needed to know what they had available. 3 - a direct FTP transfer if they have one and are familiar with it. 4 - a direct upload from my PC to their webserver (which is something I do for most clients as they don't want the hassle and fuss and have known me for years and trust me to pick the images that reflect their biz best.) Their answer was (exact words) "We want them as jpeg. What do you think we want? Can't you use your head?" Well obviously the FORMAT they wanted was never in doubt. But the question was how to get the images to them in the first place. They had no idea. Also, I had pointed out in an earlier exchange at the beginning of our correspondence, that if they opted for an email transfer, an FTP transfer, or a direct upload from my side, I still provided my clients with a burned CD of both high resolution and low resolution (resized for the web) so they would have both sizes and not have to worry about processing any image. Their response was "We don't care about high resolution or low resolution, we just want pictures. You know, those things you take with your fancy camera" So I told them that what I was refering to was the actual size and quality of the photos. To which their answer was "As long as the photos have our banners in them somewhere, that's all the quality we care about. Did you not understand that part where we said it last email?"

Ok, so we can't all expect everyone to be computer or photographic experts or such. But it doesn't excuse bad manners or condescending attitudes.

The event promoter told them that while they were sponsors, they still had to arrive and hang their banners themselves. Which they didn't do. They had their banners delivered to the promoters office directly from the printers on Wednesday. The promoter told them to come get their materials so they could hang their banners themselves. They didn't. The promoter ended up having to bring the banners to the event themselves. But drew the line at doing the manual work to put them up. Which you can't fault him for that.

The two events that they hosted that were a bust, both the promoter (who has been doing this for 12 years) and the host sites (Bently Hotel, Skyline Lounge) told them that their event was facing a failure ratio of about 80%. Because of the timing. (starting way too early for Saturday crowds in Miami). But they insisted on it anyway, because they wanted to have their *own* events in their name.

They had planned to pass out bottle water that had their website name and logo on it. Which is a common marketing tactic. We have all seen that one right? You walk around and pass out free cold water to people standing in the hot Miami sun. Which was fine. Great idea. They could have done that on the street where the main festival took place. But instead of that, they tried to walk around the Food/Drink and Business Expo area and pass them out there. But were told they couldn't do that because other vendors had paid premium money to get a spot to sell their food and drink in that area and it was wrong to those vendors for them to come in and pass out water for free and hurt the potential profits the other vendors were making. (bottle water here was like $4 so you know everyone would have snapped up the free water). Well instead of learning from that mistake, they sent some volunteers right back into those areas with the water, but this time instead of handing out water free, they were selling it for $2 per bottle, which was half of what others were charging. This lasted about half hour before vendors complained about it. They still didn't seem to grasp what they were doing was wrong and said that they were no long giving it away, but selling it like everyone else. But of course the promoter had to point out that they couldn't do that because of the simple fact that every vendor selling food or drink at his event had to have a valid food and beverage license and a copy of that on hand with the promoters office in advance to be allowed to do this. This was for liability reasons for the promoter himself and required by the City of Miami. (however to just give out water in the street and main festival area was free because it was business promotion, much like you see with pens, CD holders, frisbess, tshirts, etc..)
So it wasn't just a problem with me that they seemed to have.

They had asked me to get them 25 pictures from each event. For four events, that would have been 100 images total. Well, as I stated previously in regards to the last 2 events, I didn't get 25 from those. (only 2 from one) but still, I have over 600 images from Events 1 and 2, which after discards will likely end up 400 quality images and an estimated 175 truly knock out photos. (because as we know, not every picture we take is going to come out perfect. and there is a ratio of images = to = keepers = to = really great ones)

I have images that photographers from other magazines and websites do not have simply because of my facial recognition and friendship with the promoters and entertainers that allowed me places others were not permitted. I have photos of the celebrities backstage. I have candid photos of the performers backstage in relaxed states and even have actual photos of some of the celebrities drinking the free water with their label on it backstage. I have photos of the entire crowd gathering (pano style) from the entertainment stage (elevated 10 feet) where no other photographer was allowed.

I mean, in a nutshell I have more than they asked for and better photos that were available to them from other shooters. (which they had no other shooters.)

So it is both disappointing and frustrating to have someone overlook all their mistakes and instead threaten to send attornies after you when the only thing you did was follow their instructions to the letter.