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Thread started 05 May 2009 (Tuesday) 20:04
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Correct Exposure

 
tdodd
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May 08, 2009 16:13 |  #16

PhotosGuy wrote in post #7883777 (external link)
For people with their faces in the shade, you want your hand in the shade, too.

Not necessarily. Firstly, my response was to Minty, who was talking about landscapes, so exposing for people in their own shade is not applicable. Secondly, if you are happy to potentially blow the background then sure, go ahead and expose off your shadowy palm, but there is also the option to expose for the background and use flash or a reflector to fill your subject.

PhotosGuy wrote in post #7883777 (external link)
Adjust the meter according to your hand exposure. Then meter the grass & see where the needle falls.

I only mentioned grass for occasions when your palm is not in the same light as the main subject/scene. But you're right, ideally you could/should calibrate the grass to your palm. It can be far quicker and easier to check exposure off grass of known reflectivity rather than your palm, especially if using a long lens, or operating in a retricted space, like a hide, or having to move your palm into light other than that of the subject/scene. In the absence of any such opportunity to calibrate then grass at -2/3 or so rather than your palm at +1 1/3 ought to be a good starting point from which to fine tune.

PhotosGuy wrote in post #7883777 (external link)
Using my hand method, skip this step. You've already compensated UNLESS you're using the "Expose to the Right" tut, which is a whole 'nother thing.
It's all in the link I gave you.

I always shoot raw and often do deliberately expose to the right (or at least above a nominally "correct" exposure), especially when shooting a scene with no important highlights, such as my black dog running against a background of 100% grass/foliage.

Example with no edits - shot manual at 1/1250, f/8, 800 ISO, which is 1 1/3 stops brighter than a Sunny 16 exposure. This was shot at +1 stop above a standard "palm" exposure (lighting was about 1/3 stop dimmer than full sunshine), but that was perfect for this scene, with a dark subject that needed detail pulling out, and no highlights to be protected....

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Had I stuck with a "standard palm" exposure the detail on the dog would have been sorely lacking. I know - I've shot many frames of my dog, using a "standard palm" exposure (or grass at -1 stop), and they just do not come out well. In fact, had I used a "standard palm" exposure, the result would have been something like this (exposure set to -1.0 in DPP)....

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Now here is a textbook "Sunny 16" exposure - 1/3200, f/2.8, 100 ISO. The swan is beautifully exposed, just avoiding clipping by a whisker, but look at my poor dog. There is hardly anything to be seen of him. This "correct" exposure for the lighting and the scene as a whole is not great for shooting black dogs.

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In other words, bend the rules as necessary to fit the circumstances....

- Black dog with white swan = standard exposure (protect the highlights).
- Black dog without swan = standard exposure + 1 stop (no important highlights to protect).

From which one can conclude....

- Any scene with important highlights = standard exposure.
- Any scene with no important highlights = standard exposure + a bit (if you like), erring towards ETTR, especially if you shoot raw, but possibly if you shoot JPEG as well.

Backlit subject means you have a choice - expose for the background and add light to the subject, or expose for the subject and to hell with the background, or expose for the background and let the subject look shadowy, or pick a combination.



  
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PhotosGuy
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May 09, 2009 13:50 |  #17

Not necessarily. Firstly, my response was to Minty,

And mine was to joecan30d, who needs a simple starting point for "correct exposure". All the bells & whistles can come once that's clear in his mind, so I referenced your comments re: landscapes.


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HappySnapper90
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May 10, 2009 13:10 |  #18

Wilt wrote in post #7883876 (external link)
A simplified 'meter the hand' calibration, which is less labor intensive than Frank's exposure crutch to get started...

The palm seldom tans, it is rather consistent in brightness regardless of racial group...it is about +1EV brighter than an 18% gray card. So even without following Frank's calibration technique, you can rely upon the simplistic "Read the palm, add +1EV" whether you are a Swede or Finn in the north visitng Laplanders at the end of winter or an African close to the equator in the dead of summer.

This is provided that your hand and your subject is under the same lighting. So it won't work if your subject(s) are in the sun and your hand is in the shade.




  
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HappySnapper90
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May 10, 2009 13:14 |  #19

tdodd wrote in post #7884457 (external link)
Example with no edits - shot manual at 1/1250, f/8, 800 ISO, which is 1 1/3 stops brighter than a Sunny 16 exposure. This was shot at +1 stop above a standard "palm" exposure (lighting was about 1/3 stop dimmer than full sunshine), but that was perfect for this scene, with a dark subject that needed detail pulling out, and no highlights to be protected....

Now here is a textbook "Sunny 16" exposure - 1/3200, f/2.8, 100 ISO. The swan is beautifully exposed, just avoiding clipping by a whisker, but look at my poor dog. There is hardly anything to be seen of him. This "correct" exposure for the lighting and the scene as a whole is not great for shooting black dogs.

Sunny 16 is meant for 2 hours after sunrise and 2 hours before sunset. It isn't meant for anytime there is full sunshine, i.e. overhead sunshine.




  
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tdodd
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May 10, 2009 13:23 |  #20

HappySnapper90 wrote in post #7893649 (external link)
Sunny 16 is meant for 2 hours after sunrise and 2 hours before sunset. It isn't meant for anytime there is full sunshine, i.e. overhead sunshine.

I had not heard that before. Do you have a source of reference for this information? I thought Sunny 16 was applicable whenever you had full sunshine (no haze etc.) with the sun anywhere above approx 30 degrees above the horizon, although I can't quote an actual source for that information.

I can appreciate that the intensity of the sun may well be greater near the equator than at latitudes much further north/south (I'm at 51N) but Sunny 16 works well for me, even with swans, during early afternoon, not long after noon.




  
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HappySnapper90
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May 10, 2009 20:57 |  #21

tdodd wrote in post #7893682 (external link)
I had not heard that before. Do you have a source of reference for this information? I thought Sunny 16 was applicable whenever you had full sunshine (no haze etc.) with the sun anywhere above approx 30 degrees above the horizon, although I can't quote an actual source for that information.

Yep. See the first bullet under item #4.
http://www.fujifilmusa​.com/shared/bin/Sup_Re​ala.pdf (external link)




  
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Souwalker
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May 10, 2009 21:23 |  #22

Wilt wrote in post #7883876 (external link)
A simplified 'meter the hand' calibration, which is less labor intensive than Frank's exposure crutch to get started...

The palm seldom tans, it is rather consistent in brightness regardless of racial group...it is about +1EV brighter than an 18% gray card. So even without following Frank's calibration technique, you can rely upon the simplistic "Read the palm, add +1EV" whether you are a Swede or Finn in the north visitng Laplanders at the end of winter or an African close to the equator in the dead of summer.

If the palm is about +1EV brighter thenan 18% gray card, why +1EV erading the palm and not -1EV?

Rgds
Pat




  
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tdodd
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May 11, 2009 01:58 |  #23

HappySnapper90 wrote in post #7895911 (external link)
Yep. See the first bullet under item #4.
http://www.fujifilmusa​.com/shared/bin/Sup_Re​ala.pdf (external link)

Well certainly that's what it says, but I've never seen anything like that before and, if true, it would render the Sunny 16 Rule pretty limited for practical every day photography. What use is a rule that is inapplicable throughout most of the typical shooting hours of regular photographers? - e.g. at a wedding, during motorsports, at the zoo, wandering around a city?

This morning, sunrise was at 05:15 where I live, and so now, at 07:40 it is supposedly already too late to use Sunny 16. In my experience that is utter nonsense. My real world experience is that Sunny 16 will serve me well all day long on a bright, sunny day, so long as the sun is well above the horizon (30+ degrees or so). That might be any time from (possibly) 2 hours after sunrise to 2 hours before sunset, but also includes midday and anything else in between. It's now 08:20, 3 hours after sunrise this morning, and the sun is already high in the sky. Sunset will be at 20:40 this evening. Whether the cutoff is at 17:40 or 18:40, I should be able to rely on Sunny 16 for most of the day assuming bright sunshine, which is not the case today :(

By the way, in another month, sunrise will be at 04:44. Is Sunny 16 really only going to work at, or around, 06:44, before most people are even out of bed? I really don't think so. What makes the statement in the Reala document so odd is that Reala (according to quick research this morning) has a massive latitude for over exposure, and even underexposure, so the 2 hours after sunrise and 2 hours before sunset seems not only "wrong" for modern digital cameras, but also unnecessarily restrictive for negative film.




  
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tdodd
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May 11, 2009 02:07 |  #24

Souwalker wrote in post #7896054 (external link)
If the palm is about +1EV brighter thenan 18% gray card, why +1EV erading the palm and not -1EV?

Rgds
Pat

If the palm is brighter than middle grey, which it is, then you need to tell the camera that it should remain brighter when you photograph it. i.e. you need to expose it at + 1 stop (+1 1/3 for me and my palm).

Forget the palm for a moment and just consider a sheet of white printer paper. White paper is brighter (more reflective) than the skin of a palm. Remember that the camera's meter tries to set an exposure to average the scene to a middle grey tone. Well, if you meter a piece of white paper and make no adjustments the camera will expose the paper to make it appear "middle grey". Clearly that is wrong - white paper should not look grey. So how do you make the paper become brighter? You dial in some positive exposure compensation or, if shooting manual, set an exposure that places the needle above the centre. You will probably find that paper, being brighter than the palm, needs around +2 stops in order to appear white.

Here are five test images shot in Av mode with spot metering off the (not very) white sheet of paper and with EC values of -2, -1, 0, +1, +2. Now the paper had clear signs of printing showing through from the other side, so it certainly isn't pure, bright white, and I think the exposure at +2 is a little too bright, but somewhere between +1 and +2 would be good. Certainly, the last thing you would want is to use negative EC when metering off white paper, or the palm of your hand.

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tdodd
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May 11, 2009 03:04 |  #25

Now I've done the same thing, this time spot metering off the grass, again in Av mode at -2, -1, 0, +1, +2. This time the shot at +0 looks pretty good (exposure wise) but it is just a little bright and is showing clipping on the door frame in the background, behind the clematis. Also, the concrete base to the fence on the left is a bit too bright. I suspect an exposure at -1/3 would have been about perfect for this scene.

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If you compare the images in this post with those from the previous post, note how close the exposures look for the paper at +2 and the grass at 0. As I also said, these exposures are just a fraction bright, but both are almost equally so. The paper at +1.5 stops and the grass at -1/3 stop should have been about perfect.

Just to complete the picture, here is a shot with spot metering off my palm at +1 1/3....

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And here is a shot with manual exposure at Sunny 16 settings, even though there is haze reducing the strength of the sun. Really I should have set an exposure a little above Sunny 16, but I wanted to illustrate how the Sunny 16 setting compared to the other exposures in these conditions of hazy sunshine.

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So, what's the point of all this? Well, the point is that you can get a good, if not perfect exposure, by metering off green grass at approx -1/3 stop, pure white paper at approx +2 stops, your own palm at approx +1 1/3 stops and, under bright sunny conditions, a "Sunny 16" exposure set manually. Check your histogram in order to fine tune for complete perfection.



  
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HappySnapper90
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May 11, 2009 15:13 |  #26

tdodd wrote in post #7897418 (external link)
Well certainly that's what it says, but I've never seen anything like that before and, if true, it would render the Sunny 16 Rule pretty limited for practical every day photography. What use is a rule that is inapplicable throughout most of the typical shooting hours of regular photographers? - e.g. at a wedding, during motorsports, at the zoo, wandering around a city?

Every film data sheet has that 2 hour rule. It is saying that your subject would have direct sunlight on the front (front lit). As the sun gets higher in the sky, the direct sunlight is more and more on top of your subject instead of on its front. Moreover the 2 hour rule is basically when natural light is best and most attractive without harsh shadows from overhead sun.

So if you're so far north that sunrise is very early, that means your best natural lighting in the morning is unfortunately very early. :D

Of course you can use sunny 16 rule throughout the day with sunny skies, but you'll end up with a darker front of your subject. Though negative film has so much exposure latitude in the highlights can you can over expose some and have good looking faces if you are shooting people when the sun is high in the sky. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for digital, even dSLRs. With digital and people in high-sun skies, you either have blown out hair and ok exposed faces or correctly exposed hair and rather dark faces.




  
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HappySnapper90
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May 11, 2009 15:21 |  #27

tdodd wrote in post #7897579 (external link)
And here is a shot with manual exposure at Sunny 16 settings, even though there is haze reducing the strength of the sun. Really I should have set an exposure a little above Sunny 16, but I wanted to illustrate how the Sunny 16 setting compared to the other exposures in these conditions of hazy sunshine.

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I couldn't find exif for your photo, but did you use the starting point of f16 or f11? Because f16 is only for bright sunlight with snow or seashore. Bright sunlight is f11. Your photo is about 1 stop under exposed.

So you should really think of it as the f11 rule since you aren't often shooting snow or at the beach in sunny conditions.




  
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Wilt
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May 11, 2009 15:41 |  #28

HappySnapper90 wrote in post #7900993 (external link)
I couldn't find exif for your photo, but did you use the starting point of f16 or f11? Because f16 is only for bright sunlight with snow or seashore. Bright sunlight is f11. Your photo is about 1 stop under exposed.

So you should really think of it as the f11 rule since you aren't often shooting snow or at the beach in sunny conditions.

No, Sunny 16 is simply in distinct sun...snow/beach in the sun f/22

IMAGE: http://www.eyescoffee.com/collectcamera/sunny16rule/sunny16rulekodakfilm.jpg

http://guidetofilmphot​ography.com/sunny-16-exposure.html (external link)

Only in the snow or at the beach will you need to stop down one more stop beyond Sunny 16, because of reflection of even more light onto the subject, off the snow and sand.

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tdodd
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May 11, 2009 16:21 |  #29

HappySnapper90 wrote in post #7900993 (external link)
I couldn't find exif for your photo, but did you use the starting point of f16 or f11? Because f16 is only for bright sunlight with snow or seashore. Bright sunlight is f11. Your photo is about 1 stop under exposed.

So you should really think of it as the f11 rule since you aren't often shooting snow or at the beach in sunny conditions.

It was shot at f/8, 200 ISO, 1/800. It was not intended to be a "correct" exposure. It was intended to be a "Sunny 16" exposure, just as a basis for comparison with the other image files. Given the haze that obscured the sun, in retrospect it was probably a mistake to post that image, as it really doesn't prove much and probably serves to confuse more than enlighten. Had the sun been clear it would have served as a nice example of another option, other than metering grass and palms, for setting an exposure in bright sunshine.




  
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Souwalker
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May 11, 2009 19:08 as a reply to  @ tdodd's post |  #30

Thanks tdodd.
Rgds
Pat




  
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