Using my EX 580 MK I flash

Ok let me start of by admitting that I turn my camera to P mode when I use flash So I desperately need help before I just throw my flash in the trash......

1D MK III in P mode + Canon 24-70 f/2.8L + EX 580 MK I.

The past two days I have shot a lot outside from sunset and a couple hours later until it was pretty dark. It was at a beach party so there were some ligth from a techno stage. Of course the ligth was very varied over time. Some times a little and some times more.

So my issue is that I have taken photos without using the flash which as a result is somewhat blurred but I prefer them over some of the photos I took with flash and are a bit more sharp.

Samples:

#1: Flash on, ISO 1600, 1/125s, f/5, @24 mm, horrible result (forget composition)
#2: Flash on, ISO 1600, 1/125s, f/5.6, @46 mm, horrible result, the nice ligth from the fire is gone
#3: Flash OFF, ISO 1600, 1/50s, f/3.2, @45 mm, like this much better despite it is not 100% sharp
#4: Flash OFF, ISO 1600, 1/125s, f/2.8, @46 mm, this is the kind of results I like. It was almost completely dark. The shot was taken next to the firedancers about 30 meters away and behind the big techno stage. Almost no ligth. Amazing the focus was even possible in this ligth.

So it appears that I get the best results with flash when subjects are about 1 to 1,5 meter away from me. Any longer and the results are horrible in my opinion. And that can't be rigth? can it? Now it is most likely because I do not understand how to use flash properly, well I actually hope thats the reason or I migth as well just throw the flash in the trash.

I have done no adjustments except resize. Converted from raw using PS CS4 default settings.


#1

Welcome to the club of flash challenged POTNer's, Tommy! The last shot you have up is great.

I had my 5DII, 24-70 and 580EX I in HI and had to do a portrait of my family in front of the lagoon sunset. It was really hard. Using the flash on Manual, and still not getting it right. Took about 20 shots, trying to settle the 7 of us while I'm running to the camera (forgot the remote and I was standing too far from the tripod with camera anyway). What a pain. I just do trial and error. I gave up. But got one or two good ones. I did get one of my butt running away from the camera. My kids think that was the best one.

Tommy, some general principles...

Flash distance is inherently limited.
The Guide Number rating gives you a guide for max distance, but GN is generally optimistic and assumes you are inside where the walls and ceiling provide some benefit to increasing the light utilization.


Your 580EX has a 'normal lens' coverage GN at ISO 100 of GN130. So you could shoot at f/5.6 to about 23' (optimistically). If you shoot at ISO 1600, the GN increases by 4x to 520, which allows f/5.6 to 92', so you should not really be getting underexposed shots. Do you have FEC unintentionally dialed in?!

I can't see your photo links for some reason, so I can't be specific or look at the EXIF.

At one point I did try FEC +1 but set it back to zero as I saw no difference that I liked.

As for exif they are posted above.

Links:
#1 http://photo.klein-jensen.dk …exhibition=12&e​e_lang=eng
#2 http://photo.klein-jensen.dk …exhibition=12&e​e_lang=eng
#3 http://photo.klein-jensen.dk …exhibition=12&e​e_lang=eng
#4 http://photo.klein-jensen.dk …exhibition=63&e​e_lang=eng

Is that in feet ? which would be around 7 meters rigth ?

Still can't see the photos. The 'EXIF' didn't tell my about FEC value, but since you did, then seeing the EXIF isn't all that important, but I still cannot see the photos. Can't even right click and tell my system to display the photo?!

I just figure out that if I right click and get Properties, I can copy the link to Internet Explorer and see the photo. I am not understanding what your 'complaint' is "the results are horrible in my opinion", as the primary subject is properly exposed. The photo is 'like it was shot in the cave' in being totally black or showing little behind the main subject, and if there is ambient light you want to capture, you would need to go into M mode to try to choose a slow enough shutter speed (without letting Av pick an absurdly slow speed too slow to hand hold!) and faster f/stop.

I checked my server log and the reason why you do not see the photos is because you are browsing POTN using the IP adress instead of the domain name. I have hotlinking protection setup and that checks against the domain name. Sorry about that.

As for horrible result. What I mean is I do not like the look and here I particular mean shot #2, in this example I do not care about anything in the background the firedancer is the primary subject. I was not sure if it is properly exposed, if you say it is then I hate it and will most like opt out of using flash

Tommy I still do not see what there is to hate about photo 2. "I do not care about anything in the background"...I presume you want to eliminate background objects?
If so, increasing the shutter speed could address ambient light which falls onto the background, but that would do nothing to eliminate flash which falls back there!

You could take more advantage of the Inverse Square falloff of light, by shooting from a shorter distance with a wider angle FL, as that would have any flash fall off in the distance at a faster rate.

Maybe I am not explaining properly. What I do not like about #2 is that the ligth looks very cold. I much prefer the warmer ligth in #3. Thats what I would like even if I use flash (if that is even possible) .

#3 is without flash. You can add a little more lighting by pulling out the white deflector card and shoot the flash almost straight into the air. The card will cast a little bit of light to the subject, without taking off too much warmth.

Suggestion on #2, get your butt down. I can guess you're pretty tall and shooting at your eye level will cast a trail of fainting light. Get on your knees and capture the same shot in portrait. It'll emphasize the subject and his action a little more.

Yes, #3 is warmer simply due to the predominance of the warmer torch light and the relative weakness of the flash contribution. If you wanted #2 to be warmer, you could always lie to the camera and set a higher WB setting than 5500K (or do it in PP)

tommy, have you tried setting your camera in manual: shutter 1/40, iso 400, av 2.8 with ettl on in flash? i get pretty consistent results with those settings

It's gotten to the point where I can't even really answer a newbie question anymore, in part because I don't understand what they expect or think is proper. I guess it starts with an explanation of the light sources.

Ambient is the sum of all of that available light that is picked up over an extended period of time, and is not a sudden burst like your flash. Ambient light's effect is based on time elapsed, and slower shutter speeds gather more ambient light. The downside is that many darker environments need the subject and the camera to be held absolutely still, or else the sensor will pick up motion of the lit areas and blur them together.

Flash exposure takes place over a much faster period of time (virtually instant by human perception standards), and as long as you are within the flash sync speeds on your camera, the shutter speed has no direct effect on the flash output (except that the camera may sense less flash power is necessary to illuminate an environment with greater ambient light). Another thing about your flash is that the light it sends out follows a linear pathway, and farther subjects are not illuminated as much as nearer subjects because the concentration of the light reduces with increasing distance from the light source. Other light sources do the same thing, but with direct on-camera flash the effect follows roughly the same axis as your lens' vision pathway.

The torch light is orange because it's a very cool, low kelvin white balance, which produces a much more orange tint than bare flash.

Your camera has a usable ISO6400, so you can quadruple the amount of light you're gathering with ISO alone. If you have a f/1.4 or faster prime and you use it wide open, that will also quadruple your light gathering ability compared to your 24-70L. Combine the two and you'll gather 16x more light than the fastest setting you used before (ISO1600, f/2.8).

For your #3: Flash OFF, ISO 1600, 1/50s, f/3.2, @45 mm - You can use your 50mm prime at f/1.4 and set camera at ISO6400, and your shutter speed will be: 1/50 sec = f/3.2 ISO1600 || 1/60 sec = f/2.8 ISO1600 || 1/240 sec = f/2.8 ISO6400 || 1/480 sec = f/1.4 ISO6400.
You can get the same shot at 1/480 sec. with max aperture and ISO on your 1D III with 50 f/1.4.


Now...
If you expect to gather enough light to illuminate the environment you're shooting in with near pitch-black darkness and no flash, you're going to need the highest possible ISO setting, the widest open aperture, and/or a LONG exposure. If you have to do a long exposure, there won't be any human subjects sharp in it because all of the light hitting the moving subjects will be read on different pixels of the sensor as the subjects move. Furthermore, if you don't have a tripod, the scene will also be blurry from your camera's movement.

Or...
If you expect to illuminate every subject equally with flash on your camera, then every subject will have to be the same distance from your camera and flash. Do not expect the flash to strike subjects 20 feet away with the same concentration of light as the subjects 5 feet away.

Or...
Flash can be shot through colored gels to produce similarly low kelvin temperature (making orange light), but the light output diminishes as it passes through the gel. Also, as mentioned by someone else, if you set your camera to a hotter (bluer) white balance than your bare flash's native color temperature, it will make your flash appear more orange.

Or...
If you want to take a long exposure and give some illumination to the environment AND illuminate subjects with flash, then you can put your camera on a tripod, take a long exposure and have the flash hit the subjects you want, making sure that there is less ambient light hitting them than there is hitting the subject.

Or...
If you want to illuminate subjects in different areas and provide ambient light of the environment, put your camera on a tripod, take your flash off, do a timed shutter release and long exposure, and use the test button on your flash to discharge it at whatever setting you want against whatever subject you want. This can be like a "painting with light" exercise. Since each flash firing puts out the full discharge almost instantly (and adds to whatever ambient strikes the subject), and you can press the flash's test button multiple times during a long exposure, you can flash multiple subjects during your long exposure, from wherever you want. Remember that flash to subject distance influences exposure level.

form wrote in post #8509407
Now...
If you expect to gather enough light to illuminate the environment you're shooting in with near pitch-black darkness and no flash, you're going to need the highest possible ISO setting, the widest open aperture, and/or a LONG exposure. If you have to do a long exposure, there won't be any human subjects sharp in it because all of the light hitting the moving subjects will be read on different pixels of the sensor as the subjects move. Furthermore, if you don't have a tripod, the scene will also be blurry from your camera's movement.

I know that already.

form wrote in post #8509407
Or...
If you expect to illuminate every subject equally with flash on your camera, then every subject will have to be the same distance from your camera and flash. Do not expect the flash to strike subjects 20 feet away with the same concentration of light as the subjects 5 feet away.

I do not expect that. But I do expect equally good results regardless if subject is one meter away which my shot #4 is an example of and if the two persons were lets say 3 meters away. In the last case I have not had good results.

form wrote in post #8509407
Or...
Flash can be shot through colored gels to produce similarly low kelvin temperature (making orange light), but the light output diminishes as it passes through the gel. Also, as mentioned by someone else, if you set your camera to a hotter (bluer) white balance than your bare flash's native color temperature, it will make your flash appear more orange.

Noted.

form wrote in post #8509407
Or...
If you want to take a long exposure and give some illumination to the environment AND illuminate subjects with flash, then you can put your camera on a tripod, take a long exposure and have the flash hit the subjects you want, making sure that there is less ambient light hitting them than there is hitting the subject.

Noted but not what I wanted with these samples.

form wrote in post #8509407
Or...
If you want to illuminate subjects in different areas and provide ambient light of the environment, put your camera on a tripod, take your flash off, do a timed shutter release and long exposure, and use the test button on your flash to discharge it at whatever setting you want against whatever subject you want. This can be like a "painting with light" exercise. Since each flash firing puts out the full discharge almost instantly (and adds to whatever ambient strikes the subject), and you can press the flash's test button multiple times during a long exposure, you can flash multiple subjects during your long exposure, from wherever you want. Remember that flash to subject distance influences exposure level.

Sounds way to complicated at a party like this was.

Use manual flash settings or exposure compensation if you're not getting bright enough shots at a distance. Also consider your metering mode and where the subjects are with relation to the metered area. The difference in area of frame filled by subjects may impact the eTTL function.