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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 24 Aug 2009 (Monday) 10:27
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Rear Curtain Synch and Off Camera Flash

 
Brett
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Aug 24, 2009 16:20 |  #16

I know it's used a lot in nightclub photography. The idea is, you set SS as slow as one second, allowing in tons of ambient (dance floor lights, neon, strobe lights, etc.), and the flash only fires after that light is captured, freezing the subject people. If RCS was not used, you'd have trails off the subject people after the flash fires.

I've tried it just playing around with friends, and it works quite well. You can also twist the camera, shake it, generally move it around, and as long as it's pointed in the general direction of the subjects, they're still relatively frozen by the flash firing right before the rear curtain closes, with little or no trails.



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apersson850
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Aug 24, 2009 16:58 |  #17

Brett wrote in post #8516001 (external link)
If Rear Curtain Sync was not used, you'd have trails off the subject people after the flash fires.

...they're still relatively frozen by the flash firing right before the rear curtain closes, with little or no trails.

This is exactly what I meant. Many seem to believe that there's some difference in lighting in situations like this one, depending upon whether the flash fired at the beginning of the exposure or at the end. But there is not, something which should be evident if you look around, while you hold a flash unit in your hand and test fire it (using the PILOT button). Since the other exposure the camera does doesn't affect the environment at all, you can just as well simulate this with the flash only. You'll quickly notice that things that aren't glowing by themselves leave just about the same kind of trails before as after the flash fired. There's no difference to the lamps in the ceiling either, just because you did or did not fire the flash.
The exposure on the sensor (or film, if you would use that) doesn't know if light hit it "now" or "then", so it doesn't matter if the flash came early or late. It will overpower the ambient anyway, so people lit by the flash will appear frozen, no matter when the flash fired. The trails they leave will be just as obvious or faint, regardless of whether they were recorded before or after the flash.

However, if you are taking photos of a moving object, without panning, and this object has lights of its own (like a car), then you'll see the difference. The lights will be clearly visible, leaving streaks of bright light in the image. If you then fire the flash at the beginning of the exposure, it will look like the car runs backwards, after the photo was taken. 2nd curtain sync will take care of that.

But with people moving randomly in a night club there will be no difference for this reason. The only reason for using 2nd sync there, and that could indeed be a good reason, is that people will not be aware of you taking a picture until it's already done. If they see the flash at the beginning of the one second exposure, they may do something else in the image than they otherwise would do, if they don't know you pushed the trigger. At least if you don't use AF and the associated AF assist beam from your flash, taking a picture in a (usually) noisy night club will go unnoticed by everyone not directly seeing your camera, until the flash actually fires.

So there could very well be a reason for using 2nd curtain sync in a night club, but as a photographer, you should know what that reason is, so you know what you are doing.


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awdark
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Aug 24, 2009 19:02 |  #18

Oh wow that's the best examples of rear curtain sync I have heard so far. There was a post in the night club shots once and they said the flash was fired later and I wondered how it worked, now I know it has a name. So it sounds like another one of those reasons why people would point to the canon branded flashes so that these options are available.




  
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Curtis ­ N
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Aug 24, 2009 20:19 |  #19

Good explanation by Anders.

Example images here:
http://web.canon.jp …ctions/curtain/​index.html (external link)


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Brett
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Aug 24, 2009 21:56 |  #20

apersson850 wrote in post #8516225 (external link)
The exposure on the sensor (or film, if you would use that) doesn't know if light hit it "now" or "then", so it doesn't matter if the flash came early or late. It will overpower the ambient anyway, so people lit by the flash will appear frozen, no matter when the flash fired. The trails they leave will be just as obvious or faint, regardless of whether they were recorded before or after the flash.

However, if you are taking photos of a moving object, without panning, and this object has lights of its own (like a car), then you'll see the difference. The lights will be clearly visible, leaving streaks of bright light in the image. If you then fire the flash at the beginning of the exposure, it will look like the car runs backwards, after the photo was taken. 2nd curtain sync will take care of that.

But with people moving randomly in a night club there will be no difference for this reason. The only reason for using 2nd sync there, and that could indeed be a good reason, is that people will not be aware of you taking a picture until it's already done. If they see the flash at the beginning of the one second exposure, they may do something else in the image than they otherwise would do, if they don't know you pushed the trigger. At least if you don't use AF and the associated AF assist beam from your flash, taking a picture in a (usually) noisy night club will go unnoticed by everyone not directly seeing your camera, until the flash actually fires.

Yes, I agree. I haven't done much of it myself, but trails should appear either way, although without RCS, they'd be "reversed", which shouldn't really matter.

The fact that people will wait for the flash is a good thought as well, and probably the only valid reason to use RCS in that situation.

I'm going to have to look for the source where I read about using it in night club photography to see if he offered other reasons, but from what I remember, it was primarily about trails, which doesn't seem valid after reading your post and thinking about it.



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Curtis ­ N
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Aug 24, 2009 22:11 |  #21

I agree that the subject doesn't necessarily need to have its own light source for 2nd curtain to make a noticeable difference. If you have significant ambient exposure, you will get motion blur with a slow shutter. And the timing of the flash will put the sharp flash image in a different spot, relative to the blurred ambient image.

My contention is that in order for 2nd curtain to have a predictable effect requires that the subject be moving in a predictable way. This isn't usually the case with a nightclub crowd.


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apersson850
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Aug 25, 2009 03:35 |  #22

Curtis N wrote in post #8517752 (external link)
If you have significant ambient exposure, you will get motion blur with a slow shutter.

But if you have a significant ambient light level, then a slow shutter will not be open that long anyway, to avoid overexposure. At least if you stay away from apertures in the f/32 range.

So the fuzziness you get from motion whilst exposing will be reduced, hence the difference between flash first or last will diminish as well.

I think the nightclub phtographers, who advocate 2nd curtain sync (and really know why they do that), they like the idea of the crowd moving predictably unpredictable until the flash fires. If you flash first, expose later, you'll scare the crowd away in some specific direction or whatever they'll do. Throw beer at you, perhaps.


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awdark
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Aug 28, 2009 02:54 |  #23

Hrmm, so even though a camera has the first or second curtain sync in the custom functions. It is not possible to do a second curtain sync with a manual flash?

Edit: Nevermind, doesn't seem like it. I set exposure to 5 seconds in a dark room and the moment I pushed the shutter the flash went off. Although I moved to other subjects with light it was unable to make a difference in the bright initial burst.




  
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johnj2803
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Aug 28, 2009 07:08 |  #24

i thought the SCS is used for night shots where you want the background to be shown?

The way i remember it somewhere, the first curtain will take in the ambient light then the second curtain will take care of the subject...

in effect you subject is well lit, and you can see what is going on in the background and know where the picture was taken...

can anyone confirm this for me? :D

All the technical jargon here made me dizzy :D


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District_History_Fan
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Aug 28, 2009 07:19 as a reply to  @ johnj2803's post |  #25

The lackof second curtain sync for wireless use is a substantial flaw in Canon's flash system, IMHO. Why don't they fix this?


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Curtis ­ N
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Aug 28, 2009 07:31 |  #26

johnj2803 wrote in post #8537488 (external link)
i thought the SCS is used for night shots where you want the background to be shown?

The way i remember it somewhere, the first curtain will take in the ambient light then the second curtain will take care of the subject...

in effect you subject is well lit, and you can see what is going on in the background and know where the picture was taken...

can anyone confirm this for me?

I can confirm that the theories you present are completely without merit.

The curtains being referred to are the parts of the shutter that block light from reaching the film/sensor. The first curtain, opens to let light in, the second closes behind it.

Properly exposing the background is a matter of shutter speed, aperture and ISO. Whether the flash fires at the beginning or the end of the ambient exposure is of no consequence, except with respect to the blur created by camera or subject movement during the time when both curtains are open.


"If you're not having fun, your pictures will reflect that." - Joe McNally
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johnj2803
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Aug 28, 2009 07:43 |  #27

Curtis N wrote in post #8537565 (external link)
I can confirm that the theories you present are completely without merit.

The curtains being referred to are the parts of the shutter that block light from reaching the film/sensor. The first curtain, opens to let light in, the second closes behind it.

Properly exposing the background is a matter of shutter speed, aperture and ISO. Whether the flash fires at the beginning or the end of the ambient exposure is of no consequence, except with respect to the blur created by camera or subject movement during the time when both curtains are open.


thanks for the clarification.

so as I have been told:

Ambient light is controlled by shutter speed.
Flash exposure is controlled by apperture.

did i get it correctly this time? :D


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hoanglong
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Aug 28, 2009 07:55 as a reply to  @ johnj2803's post |  #28

for off camera flash you can rear curtainsync with a PW Multimax. you manually set a trigger delay for 2nd curtain sync.




  
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ToyTrains
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Aug 28, 2009 07:56 |  #29

johnj2803 wrote in post #8537615 (external link)
thanks for the clarification.

so as I have been told:

Ambient light is controlled by shutter speed.
Flash exposure is controlled by apperture.

did i get it correctly this time? :D

Ambient light is controlled by shutter speed AND aperture.




  
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Curtis ­ N
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Aug 28, 2009 08:14 |  #30

johnj2803 wrote in post #8537615 (external link)
Ambient light is controlled by shutter speed.
Flash exposure is controlled by apperture. Did i get it correctly this time?

I generally resist such generalizations. It's never that simple.

Ambient exposure is controlled by shutter speed, aperture and ISO.
Flash exposure is controlled by aperture, ISO and flash power.

But with an automatic flash metering system like E-TTL, the camera will automatically compensate for changes to aperture and ISO, adjusting the flash power to keep the flash exposure the same.

If you're controlling the flash power manually, then any change in aperture and/or ISO will change both the ambient and flash exposures. Changing the shutter speed will affect only the ambient exposure.


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Rear Curtain Synch and Off Camera Flash
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