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Thread started 01 Sep 2009 (Tuesday) 22:53
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Pixel density and lenses

 
toxic
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Sep 01, 2009 22:53 |  #1

So with all the new, high-MP sensors Canon's been releasing, everyone's started saying that you need great lenses to go with the higher number of pixels, because the deficiencies become more obvious. I don't see why. Whether an APS-C sensor is 10MP or 20MP, it has to be enlarged almost 14x its size for an 8x12 print. It's enlarged the same amount. Why should aberrations look worse?

Or I guess they could in very large prints, where the prints will often be much less than 200 DPI, but the viewing distance still has to be taken in to account*. For smaller prints, it doesn't matter because printers can only output at what, 300 DPI? And the naked eye can't tell the difference between 200 and 300 DPI (something along those lines).

Am I missing something?


*this goes out the window for landscapes, but a professional would be using the very best lenses and the largest format he can carry anyway.




  
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RDKirk
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Sep 02, 2009 07:41 |  #2

So with all the new, high-MP sensors Canon's been releasing, everyone's started saying that you need great lenses to go with the higher number of pixels, because the deficiencies become more obvious. I don't see why. Whether an APS-C sensor is 10MP or 20MP, it has to be enlarged almost 14x its size for an 8x12 print. It's enlarged the same amount. Why should aberrations look worse?

They don't look worse. When you have a sucky lens on a sucky camera and you suck ad handholding, you get a sucky image but you can't discern what's causing the suckiness.

Then you learn how to hold the camera more steady or use a tripod, removing camera shake as another component of suckiness. Now you can discern that its the camera/lens system that's causing the remaining suckiness. But the overall image does look better, so you are further ahead of the game.

Then when you get a camera that sucks less, you can then discern that the lens is the cause of the remaining suckiness. But still, the overall image does suck less, so you're ahead of the game.

The camera and lens are mutual limiters. The final system resolution is never as good as the potential of either component. If the potential resolution of a lens is 100 line pairs per millimeter, it's estimated that it would need a sensor capable of 300 line pairs per millimeter to get an image of better than 90 line pairs per millimeter (90% of the lens' potential). And vice versa.

At this point, no sensor yet put in a DSLR "maxes out" the better available lenses. In fact, we don't yet have a sensor that is as sharp as the sharpest B&W thin-emulsion films we used to use...and we got better sharpness then with inferior lenses.

It's true that we can now better discern the lens as the cause of some of the sharpness issues, but we are still getting better overall image quality as sensor resolutions have increased.


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tonydee
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Sep 02, 2009 12:57 |  #3

toxic wrote in post #8566594 (external link)
So with all the new, high-MP sensors Canon's been releasing, everyone's started saying that you need great lenses to go with the higher number of pixels, because the deficiencies become more obvious. I don't see why. Whether an APS-C sensor is 10MP or 20MP, it has to be enlarged almost 14x its size for an 8x12 print. It's enlarged the same amount. Why should aberrations look worse?

The flaw in your thinking here is that you're simply saying it shouldn't get worse, rather than thinking about how much of the MP-increase translates to improved print quality.

toxic wrote in post #8566594 (external link)
Or I guess they could in very large prints, where the prints will often be much less than 200 DPI, but the viewing distance still has to be taken in to account*. For smaller prints, it doesn't matter because printers can only output at what, 300 DPI? And the naked eye can't tell the difference between 200 and 300 DPI (something along those lines).

Am I missing something?

*this goes out the window for landscapes, but a professional would be using the very best lenses and the largest format he can carry anyway.

Certainly if you print small at a fixed DPI setting, then there's a point where any higher quality in the original is thrown away. As for where that point is, 300DPI is indeed a widely used rule of thumb for relatively close viewing, and you can plug your desired print sizes in, allow for the boastful optimism of DSLR manufacturers in reporting Beyer sensor megapixel counts, and work out what's good enough for you....

Personally, I would happily take giga-pixel shots if it was practical to do so using my equipment. I don't see any particular reason to say "this is enough". I'm not only interested in today's print technology, but want to keep options open for tomorrow's rendering technology... screens, projectors, printers, whatever. At the same time, I have to make judgements about "what's it worth to me"... like right now when I've missed half the product life of the 5DmkII while between jobs, I'd rather wait for the mkIII or some other compelling new release (Canon or Pentax medium format digital?)....

If you think 10MP is enough, then yeah - don't worry about your lenses. Nothing wrong with that, it's just the compromise you're comfortable with. But as RDKirk says, what people mean when they say you need great lenses is that you're not getting the most out of your camera without them. Better glass is generally capable of delivering at wider apertures too... so comparisons to equipment of bygone decades is only partly valid if you don't consider the aperture/lighting involved....

Cheers,
Tony


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BscPhoto
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Sep 03, 2009 10:23 as a reply to  @ tonydee's post |  #4

Megapixels are overrated and it's the photographer not the camera that takes good pictures.

Sure there are certain circumstances where advanced equipment will enhance your ability to take better images but when it all comes down to it megapixels are good for one thing only, size.

I shoot in sRAW2 - 5.5mp all the time.


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RDKirk
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Sep 03, 2009 11:46 as a reply to  @ BscPhoto's post |  #5

Whether an APS-C sensor is 10MP or 20MP, it has to be enlarged almost 14x its size for an 8x12 print. It's enlarged the same amount. Why should aberrations look worse?

Or I guess they could in very large prints, where the prints will often be much less than 200 DPI, but the viewing distance still has to be taken in to account*. For smaller prints, it doesn't matter because printers can only output at what, 300 DPI? And the naked eye can't tell the difference between 200 and 300 DPI (something along those lines).

In the vein of continued conversation, one of the differences between film and digital is that with film, you can tell rather easily the difference between a larger and smaller format even with small prints. Show me two 8x10 images, one taken with 35mm and one taken with 6x7--regardless of film--and I can unerringly point out the print from the larger format. Even if the smaller format is taken with higher-resolving equipment on a finer-grained film, the difference will be obvious and consistent.

With digital, it's nearly impossible to consistently tell the difference between formats until you start interpolating the smaller format significantly, and even then it becomes a dicey matter when the smaller format has a higher resolution.

This is basically the reason why some portrait professionals were able to use digital cameras for some purposes ten years ago and why at this point 99 percent of us can retire our film cameras entirely.

I would also point out that with photography, viewing distance is not really relevant in a discussion of print resolution (except in a discussion of the basics of what it means).

In practice, if you observe viewers of photography on exhibit (galleries, homes, et cetera), you see that during the course of their study of an interesting photograph, viewers will tend to move as close to it as physically possible. "Proper viewing distance" means nothing to viewers--at some point the average viewer is going to move to within reading distance if it's physically possible.

Viewers don't do that with other media. Nobody walks up to a movie screen or even a television set to see detail. Nobody climbs up on a billboard, nobody even gets close to a poster. But people will get close to a photograph because they expect a photograph to contain more detail than they can see at a distance.

This means that ideally--other factors being reasonably equal--that the photograph should be able to withstand scrutiny at reading distance as well as it,s expected to withstand scrutiny at any other distance.

It's true, though, that viewer expectations vary according to subject. For instance, viewers expect a portrait to resolve facial hair if it's to be considered a "sharp" portrait (if the portrait is clearly intended to be soft or blurry, obviously the viewer's expectation will be different). Viewers will get close enough to see if a portrait is that sharp--but no sharper. Portrait viewers are satisfied at the point that facial hair is sharp--they don't want to see skin flakes and hair mites. This is why some headshot portraits were successful even with low-resolving cameras--you can resolve facial hair in a headshot even with a 3 megapixel camera, and for a portrait that's all you have to resolve.

OTOH, viewers of landscapes expect the photograph to reveal more and more detail the closer they get to it. Their is no limit to how much detail they expect it to contain, given the opportunity to look closely at it. I once saw a guy whip out a loupe to study a landscape photograph at a gallery...but I figure he was a photographer. Considering this, the resolution requirement for landscape photography is effectively infinite.


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ralff
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Sep 03, 2009 12:14 |  #6

BscPhoto wrote in post #8576179 (external link)
Megapixels are overrated and it's the photographer not the camera that takes good pictures.

Sure there are certain circumstances where advanced equipment will enhance your ability to take better images but when it all comes down to it megapixels are good for one thing only, size.

I shoot in sRAW2 - 5.5mp all the time.

What size prints do you make? Tried looking in your gallery but all I got was a "server error" message?


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Pixel density and lenses
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