outdoor wedding at night

hi guys
can anyone give me an idea of the best way to shoot a wedding at night
this wedding is in december and the reception is set for 6 pm so it will probably be nightfall before things get going
i have practised using on camera direct flash and the pictures look harsh and unflattering
i think it will be a totally outdoors without a tent so it is unlikely that there will be any bounce surfaces
i will be using a 50d with 2.8-4 lenses and will probably have 2 580ex2's a 580ex and a radio trigger skyports or cybersyncs . i also have 2 umbrellas but as tim said these may be a bit intrusve at a wedding
thanks in advance

That's just about the absolute Worst case scenario. It all depends on how they light it. If they've got strings of lights or something else lighting the general area you'll at least have background illumination to work with.

If they're lighting it with candles . . . good times are certainly ahead for you my friend

definitely CTO gel your flash, so you can blend color temp with whatever the ambient is . . . as it'll probably be tungsten or candle

Lumiquest pocket bouncer is handy. Flash on a bracket. Maybe an assistant or two to hold and position your extra flashes (use the 580exII as your master of course and maybe mount the extra flashes, if you are going to use them, on telescopic painter poles or monopods so your assistant(s) can hold them in a variety of positions). Shoot RAW.

I find it hard to believe that any wedding venue would have their vows done in the dark. There will be some lighting, i'm fairly certain. You may want to ask the venue directly what their plan for lighting is.

If this isn't at a proper venue, you can try to convince them to shoot it earlier. I don't know their flexibility, but this is my second choice.

Last choice is shoot it as is. If it's truly getting dark and almost no ambient, i'd shoot the 580's wirelessly through an umbrella, bring an assistant to follow you arond and keep pointing it towards the couple or party in general. Hell fire two from different angles at the same time if possible. The umbrellas, while a pain in the ass to carry around on stands, will end up diffusing the light enough to make it a bit more pleasant. Keep the shutter speed as slow as possible and turn up the ISO to squeeze out any remaining ambient in the sky.

thanks for the replies everyone
so am i to understand that evenin these less than ideal conditions straight on flash is still a big no-no

patrick clarke wrote in post #8698366
thanks for the replies everyone
so am i to understand that evenin these less than ideal conditions straight on flash is still a big no-no

You actually answered that yourself with your first post

fair enough
thanks again

Uh ho, this is a pretty touch situation, and i'd want to do some experimentation before I actually did the wedding. You'll want multiple off radio triggered camera lights on light stands, and you'll want on-camera as fill. Given you can't put umbrellas close to the couple as they'll get in the way I wouldn't bother with diffusers, instead i'd cross light the same way I do receptions when there's nothing to bounce from.

Use something like ISO1600, 1/50th, F2.8 or even a prime at F2.0 or wider, and set the flashes to blend with ambient. Ambient light will probably be so low I wouldn't bother gelling the flashes, but there's no harm doing it if you have gels around anyway.

Like I said last time for wedding threads if you want professional advice post in the wedding forum.

thebishopp wrote in post #8698149
Lumiquest pocket bouncer is handy. Flash on a bracket. Maybe an assistant or two to hold and position your extra flashes (use the 580exII as your master of course and maybe mount the extra flashes, if you are going to use them, on telescopic painter poles or monopods so your assistant(s) can hold them in a variety of positions). Shoot RAW.

What do you think you're going to bounce the flash off? They're helpful inside. Outside a small soft box would be more useful.

tim wrote in post #8698884
What do you think you're going to bounce the flash off? They're helpful inside. Outside a small soft box would be more useful.

I can see you have never heard of or used a lumiquest

They are actually pretty handy and do not require anything to bounce the light off of as it is it's own "bounce".

I personally find them pretty handy and use one for most situations where my little presslite isn't practical.

From the website:

The Pocket Bouncer enlarges and redirects light at a 90° angle from the flash to soften the quality of light and distribute it over a wider area. While no exposure compensation is necessary with automatic flashes, operating distances are somewhat reduced.
Application: To soften flash light quality with minimal light loss; to be used with slaves or alone where low ceilings are not available, or where more direct but soft fill light is desired.
Light Loss: Approximately 1 1/3 stops.
Dimensions: Folds flat to 4 1/2" x 7 1/4".

---------------

Now you could probably build your own for a lot less than purchasing it, and I do a lot of DIY stuff myself but I own two (the pocket bouncer and the 80/20 version with silver & gold inserts) and I must say they do come in handy.

Since most of my work is low light stuff anyway (nightclub promotion) I do work alot in low or wildly varying and constantly changing lighting situations.

Headed to the gym but when I get back I'll take a shot of my setup and post it later.

I have a unit like the pocket bouncer, and I know what they look like. While they do throw a fair portion of the light forward they throw quite a bit of light all around the place, sideways and up especially. In practice outside it's give you a marginally softer light source, but inside it'd be more effective.

you've definitely got a tricky situation. i say before you shoot the wedding, practice outside on the streets and see the reliability you get when shooting at slower shutters. some of the consequences of shooting with lower shutter speeds and speedlights is that you might get motion blurs, even when trying to mix with the ambient light. the resulting look is far from professional. my biggest pet peeve is missing autofocus at low night situations. use a foam diffuser or something to diffuse the light from your speedlight. it will reduce the harshness of shooting dead on.

but sometimes shooting dead on is the best result when all else fails. practice!

tim wrote in post #8699719
I have a unit like the pocket bouncer, and I know what they look like. While they do throw a fair portion of the light forward they throw quite a bit of light all around the place, sideways and up especially. In practice outside it's give you a marginally softer light source, but inside it'd be more effective.

I daresay you are probably right.. but I believe the lumiquest does throw a lot of light forward by way of design... in fact if I am too close, and using my cb junior bracket (which I use for portrait work) instead of my cheap ebay one (which I use for clubs) it kind of acts almost like a snoot and I get a spotlight effect. Probably has something to do with the fact my flash is mounted higher one my cb then on my cheapo ebay one.

Been reorganizing my flickr (since I use zenfolio mostly I had let my flickr get kind of messy) so I will post the set up in a minute.

OK here it is.

HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'image/gif' | Redirected to error image by FLICKR

Make sure you use a 580EX(II) and a battery pack like the CP-E4 or a clone (yongnuo). If you must use direct flash a camera flash bracket may help in reducing red eye.

Dont flame me hear but I was talking to a photog that had to take photos outdoors on a boat cruise where there was little light with no surfaces to bounce off of. He used a Gary fong lightsphere pointed forward (like a stofen) and shot flash manually 1/16? 1/8 power. The results were suprising excellent he said. I've tried it before and the quality of light was "good". Those things are heavy though and great for tossing a salad when not in use :P

I've used my joe demb jumbo flipit in not so ideal situations but found even a large bounce card not sufficient. With this type of bounce card you must be very close to have enough light thrown forward especially if theres nothing to bounce off of.

AlanU wrote in post #8700003
Make sure you use a 580EX(II) and a battery pack like the CP-E4 or a clone (yongnuo). If you must use direct flash a camera flash bracket may help in reducing red eye.

Dont flame me hear but I was talking to a photog that had to take photos outdoors on a boat cruise where there was little light with no surfaces to bounce off of. He used a Gary fong lightsphere pointed forward (like a stofen) and shot flash manually 1/16? 1/8 power. The results were suprising excellent he said. I've tried it before and the quality of light was "good". Those things are heavy though and great for tossing a salad when not in use :P

I've used my joe demb jumbo flipit in not so ideal situations but found even a large bounce card not sufficient. With this type of bounce card you must be very close to have enough light thrown forward especially if theres nothing to bounce off of.

+1 on the batterypack. I use a yongnuo clone myself and totally forgot about it (don't normally use it for the nightclub stuff but I used it at my cousin's wedding and I use it at the promotional events thrown by a couple of the clubs I do work at - it has been invaluable).

Outside at night you'll be at a very low power so a battery pack probably won't be necessary. I use CP-E4 battery packs as well. I tend to buy all Canon, at weddings I want reliability, especially after I had a cheap brand of flash fail once.