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Thread started 29 Sep 2009 (Tuesday) 10:21
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Stopping one from taking pictures with pro equipment

 
DennisW1
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Sep 30, 2009 21:03 |  #16

Gatorboy wrote in post #8726721 (external link)
It's their event, they make the rules.

Ya know, as much as I agree that thats true I'm getting really sick and tired of hearing it. Some of the lame bull**** that passes for logical reasoning is ridiculous.

"You cant take pictures with pro equipment, we're getting complaints"....WTF kind of bull**** is that?

You have a policy preventing it? Show me or leave me alone. Don't just get in my face with ridiculous b.s. and expect me to be scared and run away.

I am all for respecting legitimate restrictions, but stories like this one just make me furious.

Someone made a comment in another thread about "people with expensive fancy gear" and how they expect special treatment just because of it. I will counter that and say that all I expect is to not be treated worse than anyone else with a camera, ANY camera, just because my gear looks like "pro" gear. If the people with cellphones and P&S cameras are allowed to take pictures than I should be as well.

In some circles that would be called discrimination.




  
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eigga
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Oct 01, 2009 06:56 |  #17

Its not rocket science.. people with higher end equipment have the chance of stealing profits. I protect my profits the same as a movie theatre that doesnt allow in food.. as frustrating as that may be its what I have to do. P&S and camera phones will never steal business so they are not restricted.. how hard is that to understand?

I have a sports photography business and yet any time my kids are involved in an event with a photographer my equipment is not used. Thats the respectful thing to do.

There are so many other ways to use your equipment and get practice or have fun, why go against the grain at events that have rules.


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jamesb84
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Oct 01, 2009 10:35 |  #18

eigga wrote in post #8739810 (external link)
Its not rocket science.. people with higher end equipment have the chance of stealing profits. I protect my profits the same as a movie theatre that doesnt allow in food.. as frustrating as that may be its what I have to do. P&S and camera phones will never steal business so they are not restricted.. how hard is that to understand?

I have a sports photography business and yet any time my kids are involved in an event with a photographer my equipment is not used. Thats the respectful thing to do.

There are so many other ways to use your equipment and get practice or have fun, why go against the grain at events that have rules.

Halleluijah, we have a break through...it's just good karma. That guy's there to earn his living, if it were me, I'd want to try and maximise my profit/takings too...if that means I enfore a clause that bans anyone else with high-end gear, then so be it.

At the end of the day, I am there to make money. Not for fun or a hobby. I want to make as much money so that I can pay my rent, buy food and keep clothes on my back and I will do whatever it takes to ensure that is possible.

End of the story is...for whatever reason...their event, their rules...don't like it...don't go, or don't take your gear.


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Jannie
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Oct 01, 2009 11:20 |  #19

Sorry but I've recently been on the other side of this. It's a world where at some events it seems that everyone is becoming a photographer and as a member of the audience I recently got very irritated at the photographers becoming so obnoxious. Interestingly enough the few pro's there were very considerate and managed to seem invisable compared to the others.

It got so bad that I wanted to throw rocks at a few of them, One man got so mad that he shouted at one photographer to get the he'll out of his families view. The photographer ignored him so he went out on front of her and blocked her view and kept ranting on her until she went down the way to where she was obviously in someone elses way. It was an amazing parade that draws people from all over to the tune of about 35,000 people into this neighborhood and it's simply delightful.

I have taken my camera once in the past but now take a point and shoot or use my iPhone get what I want from the audience position without disturbing anyone. I have been also shooting in other venues where just the loud clicking of the shutter caused people to become annoyed.

But back to this parade, there was one photographer with a 5D who was running around in a pannic, litterally running over here to click the shutter and then running 50 feet back and forth but not appearing to have anything in particular in that he was shooting. He had a Think Tank belt with three of those quick change type tubes but when he ran over and stopped right in front of our view, I could barely see he had no other lenses, just water bottles stuffed I side of all of them, but it sure looked like the getup if you didn't know. Everyone around us started watching him, a total distraction he seemed almost as if in a panic.

People like this abuse it for the rest of us and now with the proliferation of digital photogrraphy making it more available to so many more people, which I am all on favor of, there will have to become some kind of better behavior, or our opportunities will continue to be taken from us. If they have a no photographers without press permits on the parade route next year, I'll be all for it.

The irony of it is, the darn photographers are getting in the shots of all the people who are just trying to get a picture from where they sit, so the photographers were blocking the amateur point and shoot definitely non pro shooters too. The photographers were walking right out there in amongst everything that was happening.

Actually this has me thinking about talking to the parade organizers about what might be able to be done about this in the future, this is an incredibly fun event and I have to admit that this photographer thing is getting very irritating.

One reason I wanted a MKIII was for the ability to set it up with a quieter shutter for certain situations. With huge cameras like the pro bodies though, it just makes us as obvious and irritating as that person who sits behind you in a theater who talks through the whole show. The problem is and I've seen this first hand, once someone has become irritated with photographers, their legacy continues to every event and every time that same person even sees a photographer coming. This happened right in front of me last month, a professional photographer showed up with just one camera hanging around his neck, he wasn't doing anything but walking into the space and the man next to me started swearing - oh blankety, blank, here comes a damn photographer, there should be a law...

The rules will continue to become stricter and the most offensive people who attack moviestars with their cameras and then are shown in the act on TV simply make many of us seem to the public as no better than them. Our Individual behavior sets the standards for how want to work, but the public is watching everyone.

I think it's probably in the end, going to change how we shoot and what we shoot because of the public's concern and irritation. I took a picture of something at a street fair because I liked the composition, obviously no one in the shot and a woman started in on me, who are you shooting for, why are you shooting, how do I know that what you are shooting which is mine, isn't going to be put on the internet, she was very concerned. I looked at her and said you're right, you don't know, I just liked the look of it and that's why I took the picture but since you are concerned, I turned the camera screen towards her and showed her how I was deleting the image. She said thank you. There was another person not ten feed away taking a photo with a point and shoot and looked like a tourist. I was shooting my MKIII. Point and shoots currently are viewed as innocent, big black pro cameras are not viewed as innocent. People with point and shoot's seem to be there for the enjoyment and see something really neat so they take a picture, people with big cameras seem to be there to get something they can use, there is a huge difference as to how this is perceived. This is also why I am so excited about the new Panny, Olympus, Sigma, Leica larger sensor point and shoots and even the horribly expensive Leica M9, they just do not look so formidable. There is a big difference between appearing to be an person who just happens to have a camera along and a person who is there to take something away.

In the past when I was shooting motion, I was back in Lake Placid with a whole team and we were photographing World Cup Skiing for one of the ski manufacturers. There were some pretty obnoxious photographers, most of them pros, but it was hard to tell, but some were walking across the course and being pretty offensive. Our team worked with the event organizers, we all wore matching jackets and everyone knew why we were there and all of us would come to a place where there was a course guard and would ask where it was okay to stand that day and ask if we could move beyond the restraints. They figured out quickly that we were working with them and what they said would go (once we were in place, we would not abuse it and try to go closer and they didn't have to worry about watching us) and we always got in the prime positions and we were not the main show, ABC seemed to dominate the situation but we managed to work with that and stay out of everyones way. Every cameraperson on our team was able to get everything they needed and there were hundreds of photographers there. No money was paid, no special favors other than our group started by working with the organizers way before the event. Sometimes it takes that.

Events are for the paying spectators, what freedom we have now seems to be rapidly diminishing and it's up to us to make that different by our own actions and I believe not just showing up with a camera in some instances but to present ourselves to those in charge and get permission. Otherwise it will continue to get worse, opportunity for us does not consist of being a distraction for the public or paying spectators. There's too many people with cameras and too many photographers and we still have to make our own opportunity but it's going to be more and more a situation where we can't just barge in and do it and then get out. That does work when you can get away with it but now with so many being so obvious an pushy and people see photographers on the news not as artists but as takers and offensive sometimes and that is depressing. That's why for me it's so refreshing to see someone like Art Wolff do his Travels To the Edge on public TV showing the wonder of the world still as an art, I do think he is helping the image to some degree.


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Oct 01, 2009 11:46 as a reply to  @ Jannie's post |  #20

Quite right. Having expensive equipment does not entitle one to be a boor.


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MDteX
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Oct 01, 2009 12:22 |  #21

eigga wrote in post #8739810 (external link)
Its not rocket science.. people with higher end equipment have the chance of stealing profits. I protect my profits the same as a movie theatre that doesnt allow in food.. as frustrating as that may be its what I have to do. P&S and camera phones will never steal business so they are not restricted.. how hard is that to understand?

I have a sports photography business and yet any time my kids are involved in an event with a photographer my equipment is not used. Thats the respectful thing to do.

There are so many other ways to use your equipment and get practice or have fun, why go against the grain at events that have rules.

The loophole in this logic is defining pro equipment. Is it OK if I show up with a 40D? What about an XTi? A 30D with a 17-55 or what about an Xti with a 300 2.8? Is it the body? The lens? A combination? Where do you draw the line?

The last time I checked the camera wasn't the pro---the person behind it was.


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eigga
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Oct 01, 2009 12:45 |  #22

The loophole in this logic is defining pro equipment. Is it OK if I show up with a 40D? What about an XTi? A 30D with a 17-55 or what about an Xti with a 300 2.8? Is it the body? The lens? A combination? Where do you draw the line?

Exactly, which is why my contracts either resrict cameras all together or limits their location. For example at the plays and dance recitals my contract says simpy no flash photography or at a softball game it restricts cameras from being on the field or in the dugout. The main thing is I work with the event to provide the best service possible... the event has my success in their best interest as well. Thats the way it should be.

The "pro camera" term was part of the OP rant , I dont think that is what is typically in a contract. And if so you draw the line where the event decides.... much like an NFL game - the security guard decides what goes in or not.


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Oct 01, 2009 13:36 as a reply to  @ eigga's post |  #23

Matt,
Ever get the feeling that it is futile to debate this?

Dave


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MDteX
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Oct 01, 2009 13:57 |  #24

wyofizz wrote in post #8741994 (external link)
Matt,
Ever get the feeling that it is futile to debate this?

Dave

It's not futile but it does help everyone have more information for when they are in the same situation.

For my events cameras are restricted to a certain area. If the organizer doesn't want that then I do the best I can and provide images that exceed what someone else can get---even with pro equipment. I help people if they need help. I learned from a very seasoned pro that yelling or demanding that someone stop does not help. He instead helps the others and in turn his sales increase because of his professionalism. That's my tactic too.

Back to the OP...it's a tough call about stopping one person with a certain type of camera yet let others take photos but very common at pro sporting events. Unfortunately its up to "Stan the security guy" to make the call in most cases.


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LONDON808
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Oct 02, 2009 01:41 |  #25

im gona say this

if you look the part then most tine poeple belive you are the part

in the past and even now i abuse this

its o easy to walk past security or barriers and even gates is you look liek you belong OR look liek you might be somthing your not

i have used my camera and a big lens to walk past gated areas and fences to get better angels for shots and most times no 1 even bats an eye lid because it looks like i belong

i have walked past security at shows and events holding a clipboard and wearing my ID card around my neck (just a very basic ID with my photo a description and my website adrss on it)

so if your standing there looking like you are a pro (some 1 who makes money from what they shoot) dont be suprised if people think thats who and what you are


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danaitch
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Oct 02, 2009 04:24 |  #26

bobbyz wrote in post #8727614 (external link)
Sorry about the UK fans, didn't mean it that way.

It's like saying ALL members of the Raider Nation are beer-swilling, painted idiots with violent tendencies. Mind you... :p

I say that as a chest-beating, card-carrying member of the Raider Nation, making my annual pilgrimage again this year from the UK. 20 years in a row and counting. It's lucky they're not a hopeless team with a self-destructive, out-of-touch owner... otherwise I might not go. :lol:

Incidentally, if you're fed up of being treated badly just because you're carrying a camera (in some places, at least) you should visit this site - http://photographernot​aterrorist.org/ (external link)


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Oct 05, 2009 09:53 |  #27

MDteX wrote in post #8741464 (external link)
The loophole in this logic is defining pro equipment. Is it OK if I show up with a 40D? What about an XTi? A 30D with a 17-55 or what about an Xti with a 300 2.8? Is it the body? The lens? A combination? Where do you draw the line?

The last time I checked the camera wasn't the pro---the person behind it was.

I ran into this at a college football game, the body didnt seem to matter, just the length of the lens. It had to be 6" or shorter, so back went my 70-200...other than that...didnt seem to be to restrictive..

So where is the line drawn...Camera, Lense, Apparel of the User...or are we saying that mom and dad must now only purchase a p&s if they want to get pictures of little johnny in an event where a pro might be, since a DSLR, would then have them considered to be pro's even if they never take it off the green box and only have the kit lense....It's an interesting problem..


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Jaime ­ R
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Oct 05, 2009 10:32 |  #28

digirebelva wrote in post #8763802 (external link)
I ran into this at a college football game, the body didnt seem to matter, just the length of the lens. It had to be 6" or shorter, so back went my 70-200...other than that...didnt seem to be to restrictive..


Sounds like it's time to pull out a 70-300 DO.... :D




  
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PMCphotography
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Oct 05, 2009 17:31 |  #29

MDteX wrote in post #8741464 (external link)
The loophole in this logic is defining pro equipment. Is it OK if I show up with a 40D? What about an XTi? A 30D with a 17-55 or what about an Xti with a 300 2.8? Is it the body? The lens? A combination? Where do you draw the line?

The last time I checked the camera wasn't the pro---the person behind it was.

This happened to me a few weeks ago!

I went to an Aussie rules football game with my 40d and my 70-200 f/2.8 lens. Not a chance, the security guard says. Pro equipment isn't allowed. I asked them to define pro equipment and he responded with:

"a digital slr is pro equipment. I mean, that's what all our guys use."

I chuckled to myself and asked to see his supervisor and to see some sort of clause or regulation that stated what camera equipment could or couldn't be used. The supervisor actually did show me a stadium clause that stated some legaleeze about equipment and pro cameras. So i left it, made the quick walk back to my hotel room and grabbed my fiancees 18x zoom fuji compact (one that looks like a little slr) and just to be an *******, my film slr from the trunk of my car.

The same security guard tried to make a stink about the film slr, but i politely reminded him that he specified "digital slr" weren't allowed. He said nothing about film. He waved me through, and with my wife's little 18x zoom was able to fill the frame from my seat with the players. Something i'd never have been able to do with my the original lens and body combo i wanted to bring to get a few snaps of the crowd and my fiancee :cool:


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eigga
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Oct 05, 2009 21:58 |  #30

and just to be an *******, my film slr from the trunk of my car.

Just dont be pissed the next time someone goes GWC at your next wedding or event job. What goes around....


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Stopping one from taking pictures with pro equipment
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