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Thread started 02 Oct 2009 (Friday) 08:22
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Mixing 25P and 30P footage

 
Lightstream
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Oct 02, 2009 08:22 |  #1

Hi folks,

Am in a dilemma here. I have my eye on a new video camera, that offers me a bit more control than my existing cameras (like stepping up from P&S to DSLR), but I have the misfortune to be stranded in a PAL section of the world. The only model of the camera available here shoots 25P and 50P/50I.

The problem is I have a Canon HF100 and 5D, which are both 30P (I got the US version of the HF100, being a follower of B&H and all that :p). Using them as B-cameras is going to cause problems. The 5D doesn't even shoot 24P, which could potentially be used with the HF100 (we'd downconvert the 25P to 24P then shoot the HF100 in 24P, and match all of them on a 24P timeline).

I am aware that mixing and matching 25P and 30P is a nightmare. What is the best way to go about solving this thorny problem? I am not limited to conversion software, since I haven't bought the camera I'm open to 'out of the box' solutions.




  
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JPM ­ Photography
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Oct 03, 2009 14:52 |  #2

why not just buy a camera that shoots 30P or 60P/60I or 24P from B&H in the US. It would fit right in.
is the camera you are looking at unavailable in a NTSC model?


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Lightstream
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Oct 04, 2009 00:40 |  #3

JPM Photography wrote in post #8753948 (external link)
why not just buy a camera that shoots 30P or 60P/60I or 24P from B&H in the US. It would fit right in.
is the camera you are looking at unavailable in a NTSC model?

Am actually contemplating that. The camera is available, however it's a question of whether this manufacturer (not Canon) will honor the warranty on what is technically a 'gray set'. At this point in time I think I'm prepared to take my chances with that :)




  
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FlyingPhotog
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Oct 04, 2009 00:45 |  #4

You've definately got a bit of a bind because you're staring the need for Standards Conversion squarely in the face.

Generally speaking, you'd want to do the entire project in PAL and convert to NTSC (or vice versa) rather than trying to mix two different broadcast standards into one pot.


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basroil
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Oct 04, 2009 01:16 |  #5

Lightstream wrote in post #8746545 (external link)
Hi folks,

Am in a dilemma here. I have my eye on a new video camera, that offers me a bit more control than my existing cameras (like stepping up from P&S to DSLR), but I have the misfortune to be stranded in a PAL section of the world. The only model of the camera available here shoots 25P and 50P/50I.

The problem is I have a Canon HF100 and 5D, which are both 30P (I got the US version of the HF100, being a follower of B&H and all that :p). Using them as B-cameras is going to cause problems. The 5D doesn't even shoot 24P, which could potentially be used with the HF100 (we'd downconvert the 25P to 24P then shoot the HF100 in 24P, and match all of them on a 24P timeline).

I am aware that mixing and matching 25P and 30P is a nightmare. What is the best way to go about solving this thorny problem? I am not limited to conversion software, since I haven't bought the camera I'm open to 'out of the box' solutions.

You have two ways of doing it once it's shot: converting to 25 or 30 fps, or using a frameserver and hoping it works smoothly. I suggest the former, though the latter works quite well if set up properly.


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Lightstream
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Oct 04, 2009 01:29 |  #6

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #8756447 (external link)
You've definately got a bit of a bind because you're staring the need for Standards Conversion squarely in the face.

Generally speaking, you'd want to do the entire project in PAL and convert to NTSC (or vice versa) rather than trying to mix two different broadcast standards into one pot.

basroil wrote in post #8756553 (external link)
You have two ways of doing it once it's shot: converting to 25 or 30 fps, or using a frameserver and hoping it works smoothly. I suggest the former, though the latter works quite well if set up properly.

Actually, it's the input and acquisition that's the problem. Virtually all of this output will be going to computer displays, which can handle 24, 25, 30, whatever I throw at it no problem. PAL, NTSC and interlaced format are legacies of yesteryear which should die quickly so as not to inconvenience us 100%-digital folk :p

Given that in mind, what would you recommend I acquire in? 30P or 25P?

I have an option of buying an imported camera to get my 30P and then shoot everything 30P, or buy a local camera and be forced to mix and match 25P and 30P footage with my Canons (unless there is an easy way to convert 30P to 25P or vice versa).




  
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FlyingPhotog
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Oct 04, 2009 01:35 |  #7

[QUOTE=Lightstream;875​6612]Actually, it's the input and acquisition that's the problem. Virtually all of this output will be going to computer displays, which can handle 24, 25, 30, whatever I throw at it no problem. PAL, NTSC and interlaced format are legacies of yesteryear which should die quickly so as not to inconvenience us 100%-digital folk :p[QUOTE]

It's not totally dead. Witness 1080i format...

I'd rent the NTSC camera and shoot it all native 29.97 and convert the finished piece to whatever standard/format/scan rate/compression ratio you need.


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Lightstream
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Oct 04, 2009 01:39 |  #8

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #8756643 (external link)
It's not totally dead. Witness 1080i format...

I'd rent the NTSC camera and shoot it all native 29.97 and convert the finished piece to whatever standard/format/scan rate/compression ratio you need.

I know, 1080i sucks! ;) (hence my comment "needs to die").. 1080/30P rocks :D

Great, except I'm looking to buy, so I'll just buy the camera and do it 'my way' 30P :)

Most of these are gonna end up as H.264 MPEG-4 for digital delivery.




  
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basroil
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Oct 04, 2009 02:12 |  #9

Lightstream wrote in post #8756612 (external link)
Actually, it's the input and acquisition that's the problem. Virtually all of this output will be going to computer displays, which can handle 24, 25, 30, whatever I throw at it no problem. PAL, NTSC and interlaced format are legacies of yesteryear which should die quickly so as not to inconvenience us 100%-digital folk :p

Given that in mind, what would you recommend I acquire in? 30P or 25P?

I have an option of buying an imported camera to get my 30P and then shoot everything 30P, or buy a local camera and be forced to mix and match 25P and 30P footage with my Canons (unless there is an easy way to convert 30P to 25P or vice versa).

Actually, it's the editing program that will be the problem, some only accept one type of frame rate per project, and that's where it gets annoying. Even if it does, lighting will be tricky... Always aquire for what's best for output and acquisition. If you are going for NTSC in a 60hz power line country, shoot 30fps, if you are shooting for PAL country with 50hz lines, shoot 25fps. If you are shooting in japan where they use ntsc AND have 50hz lines, well, you are sh!t out of luck and better learn how to shoot properly so lights don't flicker.

EDIT:
And for your knowledge... even the "digital" video streams are transmitted and displayed analog... QAM and similar compressions use analog signals to transfer data, and component cables (and even some types of hdmi video) are analog in nature... And worse yet, even the strictly digital youtube actually supports (and often recompresses and displays in) 720i for video... not even real 720p (not all the time, but some of it is, and you usually can't tell until you download and review the file)


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Oct 09, 2009 20:38 as a reply to  @ basroil's post |  #10

It's all about framerate. Standard definition video runs at 50 Hz (PAL) 59.94 Hz (NTSC) interlaced half-frame. Film runs at 24 FPS (48 Hz/2 since interlace came later). The next question is aspect ratio. 4:3 or 16:9 (4^2x3^2). Then comes letterbox v curtain crop.

And... it starts...

Choose a base framerate and stick to it.

60i or 30p/50i or 25p just bear in mind that 25p is more compatible with film (24p).

PAL (768x576) v NTSC (640x480) with NTSC having the higher (30v25 FPS) frame rate and PAL having the higher resolution, the choice is yours.

In short, I'm completely over the format wars. I've had a near stand-up argument with an IBM employee who was absolutely convinced that the australian standard was 60 Hz (being a contractor, I wanted to be paid, so I backed off).

So, what ever format you choose, stick to it. If you want an option, go for 50p. It'll be more compatible with film.

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Lightstream
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Oct 09, 2009 23:22 |  #11

Great, thanks for the tip :)

I have decided to stick with 30P because I have a base of equipment that is already 30P (read: 5DMk2 and it's not going anywhere). I will be shooting completely in HD, so the resolution thing is all going to be 1080P.

No intention to do the 'film thing' so 30's fine. Though my upcoming Panasonic HMC40 will shoot 24P native if I need it to. I deliberately bought the US version rather than the international version (HMC41) so as to give myself an option of 30P and 24P. International version does only 25P.




  
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Mixing 25P and 30P footage
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