What strong ND filter is right for me?

I'm relatively new to filters. "Relatively" because I have been using a Hoya Circular Polarizer and a Hoya NDx8 Neutral Density for awhile now. Both are 77mm screw-on types. Unfortunately, the ND filter I have been using is only worth 3-stops. It's been great, but I am in search of something much stronger.

Seeking: ND and Grad ND; 77mm screw-on. The thinner the better.

What do you fine gentlemen recommend?

AFAIK there aren't any (really good anyway) circular/screw ND Grads available - slot-in seems to be the way to go with ND Grad so that you're able to move it up and down in the holder to 'reposition' the effect.

I know what you're saying on the "thinner the better" bit - I'm looking for a filter system which will allow me to use ND Grad filters at 17mm (FF)...

Aside from the 'thinner the better' bit, you should probably look at the Cokin slot system. There's a large selection of effects (with some pretty 'dark' NDs available), and of course you can stack two filters to magnify the effects too.

Regards,

Rob.

Thanks Rob. Any ideas how wide on FF the Cokin slot system allows you to go?

The Hoya's I am currently using will allow me to use 17mm on my 5D provided I only use one at a time. If Cokin doesn't allow for UWA, then that probably won't be the solution for me.

As for 'straight' NDs much stronger than 3 stops, B&W makes a 6-stop and a 10-stop 77mm screw-in, and Hoya does one called something like 'ND400', which is about 9 stops. There's a very expensive variable ND using crossing polarisers, I think it's made by Singh-Ray and it varies from 3 to 8 stops. Very dense filters are actually best in screw-in form, because they're so dark: with a slot filter that dark it's very hard to prevent stray light coming in around the frame. The srew-in filter doesn't have that problem. I think that's why Cokin withdrew their 'NDX' filter, because it was so hard to get a decent shot with it.

The UK mag Practical Photography November issue has an article on the use of these strong ND filters.

As FactionOne says, ND grads are best used as slot filters, otherwise you're always stuck with having the transition bang across the centre of the frame.

ken2000ac wrote in post #8752916
Any ideas how wide on FF the Cokin slot system allows you to go?

The P-series has a slim holder for UWA, which only holds a single filter, but will allow 17mm at FF. Otherwise you might be better going for the even bigger series - is it 'Z-Pro', or something like that? I just checked, and they have an even bigger series called X-Pro, but that's probably overkill for 35mm-format cameras.

ken2000ac wrote in post #8752862
I'm relatively new to filters. "Relatively" because I have been using a Hoya Circular Polarizer and a Hoya NDx8 Neutral Density for awhile now. Both are 77mm screw-on types. Unfortunately, the ND filter I have been using is only worth 3-stops. It's been great, but I am in search of something much stronger.

Seeking: ND and Grad ND; 77mm screw-on. The thinner the better.

What do you fine gentlemen recommend?

As others have said, that for ND Grads you are much better off with a 4"x6" filter due to the ability to move it up and down to custom tailor the effect given where you want the horizon line to fall in your shot.

Furthermore, I recommend the 4"x6" filters due to versatility. If/when you add additional lenses to your bag which you will want to use the ND's and ND Grad's with, you will not need to replace these, simply purchase additional mounting rings. (In my bag I have rings from 49mm - 82mm).

Also, given that you wish to use it on a 77mm lens (I also use mine on an 82mm lens), buying for such sizes gets quite costly in screw-mount.

I recommend the Cokin Z-Pro system for such sizes. The benefit of Z-Pro is the ability to stack vs. being limited to only one filter in the wide-holder for the P-System (which I've owned since 1991). Also, getting the Z-Pro ND Grad Kit will get yourself a 2-stop, 4-stop, and 8-stop pack for about $160. I buy all my filters from here.

By comparison the Singh-Ray Vari-ND (which is VERY good, but not graduated of course) costs almost $400 for the thin-mount version (which in truth isn't THAT thin, but its thinner than their standard mount which costs $340). And the Singh-Rays are only available as 77mm and 82mm's so for any other lens you will need a step-up ring. You can get the Singh-Ray's here.

Bottom line, if you get the Cokin, you won't regret it... they are great. Plus you can stack other filters into the mix for added effect. Such as star filters and soft filters.

Madweasel wrote in post #8752933
As for 'straight' NDs much stronger than 3 stops, B&W makes a 6-stop and a 10-stop 77mm screw-in, and Hoya does one called something like 'ND400', which is about 9 stops. There's a very expensive variable ND using crossing polarisers, I think it's made by Singh-Ray and it varies from 3 to 8 stops. Very dense filters are actually best in screw-in form, because they're so dark: with a slot filter that dark it's very hard to prevent stray light coming in around the frame. The srew-in filter doesn't have that problem. I think that's why Cokin withdrew their 'NDX' filter, because it was so hard to get a decent shot with it.

The UK mag Practical Photography November issue has an article on the use of these strond ND filters.

As FactionOne says, ND grads are best used as slot filters, otherwise you're always stuck with having the transition bang across the centre of the frame.

Any experience with the B&W 10-stop or the Hoya 9-stop? I found the ones you reference and will certainly pick one of them up soon.

Regarding the grads, I guess it wouldn't be terribly bothersome to have the grads + holder in the bag in addition to the screw-ins.

Will a single Cokin grad filter work in conjunction with a screw-in type filter?

Thank you everyone, for the insightful responses. I love this site!

Another option just to ponder is buying only the filters you need and hand holding them in front of the lens. Saves money on the holders...

I have the B&W 10-stop and it's a very good quality one. I must admit I haven't done much with it yet, but I did one 'trick' shot with it: the exposure was about 30 seconds and I stood in front of the camera for around 10 seconds, then ran off, to leave a ghostly image. The B&W, and probably the others too, has a warm colour cast to it, which in many pictures is fine, but you might need to correct it, either by adjusting the colour temperature after shooting, or by using a custom white balance.

As for the thin Cokin P-series holder, you can't stack it with a screw-in filter at very wide angles, such as 17mm on FF or you'd be cutting off the image corners. With the Z-Pro you might be alright, but I couldn't guarantee it as I don't use that size.

Madweasel wrote in post #8754450
I have the B&W 10-stop and it's a very good quality one. I must admit I haven't done much with it yet, but I did one 'trick' shot with it: the exposure was about 30 seconds and I stood in front of the camera for around 10 seconds, then ran off, to leave a ghostly image. The B&W, and probably the others too, has a warm colour cast to it, which in many pictures is fine, but you might need to correct it, either by adjusting the colour temperature after shooting, or by using a custom white balance.

As for the thin Cokin P-series holder, you can't stack it with a screw-in filter at very wide angles, such as 17mm on FF or you'd be cutting off the image corners. With the Z-Pro you might be alright, but I couldn't guarantee it as I don't use that size.

Thank you - very helpful. I will place an order soon for the B+W 10-stop. The Grads are less of a priority, however, which will give me some time to research what holders will work best with my current set-up.

I can't wait to start taking long day-time exposures!