Help!! Worse-case scenario...

You have a daughter. Your daughter takes horse riding lessons. The lessons in the colder months are held in the indoor arena.

The lighting is worse than "sucks", in fact, it should be a crime to call it lighting at all.

Your fastest lens is the 50mm f/1.8. However, you've gotten decent shots out of your 28-300mm IS L. Not spectacular, but good enough that you wouldn't be embarrassed to show them.

White balance, what is white balance? As soon as you even think about shooting in this arena, the white balance settings on your camera go to Tahiti. This place makes white balance look like rocket science, and I'm not a rocket scientist.

You can't set up lighting, mainly because you can't put it where it needs to be.

You can't use flash because direct flash won't help and the ceiling is basically beams and a roof, nothing to bounce off of. Plus, when your daughter is riding at the far end, you can't shoot flash that far. You can't even cheat and use a Better Beamer.

You can use your 50mm f/1.8, but even that isn't too good because you can only reach so far with 50mm, and the lighting is really bad, even f/1.8 doesn't help sometimes.



What do you do??


1.) Do you fight with what you have?

2.) Do you buy a new lens?

3.) Do you just take a PnS and shoot Auto, hoping that something nice will happen?

4.) Do you go and not take any pictures at all, and not capture the memories?

Any other choices?? What would you do?? Here are some example images, shot with the 50mm f/1.8.

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Just my opinion, IS is good for outdoor walking around quick offhand work, and you are obviously able to at least brace off of a beam or set up a tripod in this case- IS is a waste of money unless you think you will use the lens outdoors with slow or non moving subjects alot. I use a 70-200 f2.8 for this kind of stuff, non IS, and use a monopod alot. No substitute for fast glass. I would also recomend extreme care when changing lenses in a horse arena. If it was well lit, you could see all the airborn dust in there and you might not change lenses at all.
try panning, for me there is just no shot as pleasing as a good pan with the horses eye in focus and the smile on the rider clearly visible with blurred out legs and a nice background smear.

Thanks for the input. I don't change lenses indoors, I go out to the van to do that. That's why I was using the 20D instead of the 40D today. I already had the 28-300mm L on the 40D and I didn't want to swap lenses so I just grabbed the 20D. If I was to get the 70-200mm f/2.8 Is L, I would use it for way more than just the riding. I'd turn the IS off when it wasn't needed, so it's not a big deal. But, it's nice to have it when I need it. I'm not concerned with a monopod or tripod, I don't normally need them. I'm strong enough to hold the heaviest of lenses with no stabilization and not have any problems.

My main concern is that the 70-200mm f/2.8 would not do much good in this arena. You have to see it to understand, but the lighting really is horrendous. You see what I got with the f/1.8 and ISO800 in the last shot. I'd have to shoot ISO800 on my 40D to get a good shot in there with the f/2.8. I'd can easily say that the worse indoor sports lighting you have ever seen is like sunlight compared to this place.


I'd like to know what the heck I can do to improve the shots without having to buy a lens that I might not get better results with. I keep bouncing around on the 70-200mm because I'm fairly certain that, other than the riding, I wouldn't use it, because I wouldn't give up using the 28-300mm L. Maybe I should rent a Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 or the Sig 70-200mm f/2.8 and see how they do in there. At least I wouldn't be out a lot of money if I didn't like the lens.

I don't know, maybe I'm just being stupid, like I usually am.

A tough situation to deal with for sure. One problem I see is your shutter speeds (1/13, 1/25, 1/25) are too slow to stop any motion. Apertures are at f1.8 which means your dof is not gonna be much at all. You need to get shutter speed up to at least 1/125th to even think about stopping motion. The faster she's moving on that horse and the faster it will take to stop it. My suggestions are :

1. shoot RAW - it is better to adjust WB and you're gonna have to add exposure in post. It will get you a little better results IMO.
   
2. get off of AV mode and use TV with at least 1/100th. Focus mode to AI Servo.
   
3. ISO to 1600. You're gonna get noise. I'd rather use a higher ISO and get closer to exposure than use a lower ISO and have to push in post. Your 3 shots were 400, 800, & 800 so this will gain a little back from SS. Jump up to ISO3200 for a try.
   
4. f1.8 - not much you can do here. Anything else is gonna lose light for you and it's at a premium. DOF is thin.
   
5. use a noise reduction program to clean up.
   
6. add exposure in post and hope for the best.

Thanks for the help. These were the best of the day. Sadly, I've shot this condition so many times that it's gotten to where I'll shoot twenty shots and put the camera away. I'm sick of fighting the bulls--t lighting they have. I get so frustrated after about ten minutes that I go to the bag, only to be doing the same exact thing I've done before, which didn't help then, and won't help now.

I've shot faster exposures at ISO1600 with the 40D, and the shots are too dark to work with without giving up IQ. I love what the 40D does at ISO1600, so I'm not concerned with the noise. But, the exposure under those lights is too dark to pull any decent detail out. I wish I had save some shots, but when I see shots like that I just delete them without trying to process. I've beaten that horse to death and then some. Plus, it's distance too. I could use the 50mm, and be happy enough to keep shots, but when she's at the middle of the arena or farther the 50mm falls way short. I need a lens that will get me closer, and still have a wide aperture. I'd come home with 100 shots of her standing five feet away, and none of her any farther. For that kind of shot I could stay home, stuff a riding helmet on her head, and shoot in my office.

I'm a strong believer in Noiseware when necessary, love the program, love what it does. But, it's not the noise that bothers me, it's the color, the detail, etc.. I process for one thing and another thing looks like crap. And, my computer skills are better than professional. I've been using computers since the dinosaur days, the days of the 386DX, and yes, I'm that old. I'm so old I was on the internet before it was the internet. Processing isn't a weak area.


I don't expect perfect, but I would at least like "usable".

Thanks for the help guys. I'll try a few things you suggest the next time out, see what happens. But, to be honest, it's not anything I haven't tried before.

So use ISO 3200?

Use direct flash for fill. You'll be surprised how far it will reach out at high ISO's. Even 100' should be usable.

So wait until she gets closer?

No. Learn how to use what you have. Next time, shoot some tests on manual at 40' at a range of flash power settings.
This will give you a clue on how distance relates to f-stops. See post #3
Tips for Xmas Ball Please

Well, that's just wrong.

I know, I'm mean, huh??

Eek, I have to learn something?? Boy, now who's the mean one.


The next time I shoot out there I'm gonna do what you guys suggest, and then I'm gonna post the images. I want to see if you guys can do anything with the images. Then we can see if it's me being insane, me sucking at photography, or you guys not understanding just how crappy the lighting is, and how big the arena is.

Not to be a smartass, but even Jesus Himself couldn't photograph in there without setting up lighting, and He wouldn't be able to set up lighting. I think this might be one of those rare times when I should just shoot Auto and forget that I know anything about photography.

You should have no issues shooting ISO1600 but do it in RAW, my 30D isn't as good in the high ISOs in JPG but great in RAW. White balance you will be able to fix in RAW, not so much in JPG.

The autofocus on the 50 f/1.8 is slow and inaccurate for this type of shooting, I think you need something better even if it's a 85mm f/1.8 or something. Ultimatly the best lens probably would be a 70-200 f/2.8 IS. Anything with USM would be good.

granted i still consider myself a noob...but i'd max it out to ISO 3200...i'd rather have a noisy shot, than a motion blurred shot...

also i'm not sure how fast your daughter is moving, but it seems like if you could set yourself up in a spot where she's riding by you, you could try and do some panning shots with AI-Servo...the lower shutter speed won't matter as much, and would give a good motion blur to the background as well...

have you thought about using your macro lens?

Maybe grab an extra stop with the 135L (vs the 70-200 2.8)?

You lose some range, and some flexibility, but the extra stop may be worth it.

I agree. I've been in those places & there's no way that I'd try to use a f/2.8 lens. f/1.8 is as slow as I'd use + kicking in a little bit of fill flash.

Thanks for the input everyone.

I have actually used my macro lens, but the AF is slower than a snail taking a nap. Once it falls of I have to wait for it to come back, and that takes forever. I didn't try shooting it manual focus though, so maybe I'll try it next time. I have to wait until the next time out to try everything you guys suggest. Maybe I'm just overthinking things when I'm there, and playing around with too much gear and too many settings.

A lot of what you suggest I've already tried, but it can't hurt to go over it all again. Maybe I'm just missing something. You guys are actually giving me a lot to think about, stuff that I may have done but maybe not have done correctly, or haven't done correctly for that particular situation.

PhotosGuy wrote in post #8916694
I agree. I've been in those places & there's no way that I'd try to use a f/2.8 lens. f/1.8 is as slow as I'd use + kicking in a little bit of fill flash.

Yeah the f/2 lens looks like a good idea, and the OP is right, this is a terrible lighting situation. What I would do is shoot with what I had for tests using green gel on the fill flash because part of the problem here is mixed light. Adding fill flash without a gel is like introducing more daylight. There should be green gels in the swatch book, if not try to find some flo-green cine-gel. Some manufacturers call it plus green but in any case it would help to even out the mixed light problem. In all probability nothing will give you a perfect color balance, just the nature of the situation but it can be a lot better than the samples posted here. And by all means shoot RAW. Just a note of over abundant caution, if at all possible try some flash pictures of the horse without your daughter aboard, some horses get spooked by flash, it's very likely this one will take it in stride but I wouldn't want you to find out the hard way.

I've got gels. Not concerned with spooking the horses, I've shot flash a couple of times now with several horses, and they don't even care. Plus, everyone needs to fall off once, and since my daughter hasn't fallen off yet, I'm anticipating the moment every time we go.

Not at all worried about it though, you're supposed to fall, it's in the manual.


And to be honest, I never even thought about the 135mm L. Didn't cross my mind. I think I was locked on finding a zoom, but the 135mm is in that meaty part of the range that it'd be good for the arena. That might be a better option than what I've been thinking.

You can easily (ok. not easily) get indoor shots of your daughter to preserve the memories. And you should be able to do so with out getting her bucked off. Although I shoot a lot of horse shows with flash.

1) Get a fast lens. Your 70-200 F/2.8 is marginally fast enough, depending on light. The 135 F/2 is a fantastic lens and I will probably get one. For now I use a 100 F/2, just as fast, cheaper and on your crop sensor will be comparable to a 135. I shoot the 100 on a FF or, more often, on a 1.3.
2) forget IS. See number 3.
3) Up your ISO to 1600 enough to get a SS at least 1/400th. At this high of SS, IS is irrelevant. Use your 40D because it handles noise better. All of your shots are the way they are, blurry, because of slow ss. I will often shoot at 3200 but my two bodies handle noise really well. Shooting at high ISO allows very little room for underexposre.
4) Think about a software package to clean up noise. I use Imagenomic Noiseware. A lot of people swear by Noise Ninja.
5) Shooting raw will give you more room. Shoot in Raw then use it to correct WB and adjust exposure if you have to.

This was shot at ISO 1600, 1/500th, F/2. Used a 1DMkII and 100 F/2. I cleaned up noise in Noiseware.

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