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Thread started 07 Nov 2009 (Saturday) 13:09
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7d vs 5d II -- the pink cloud starts to lift........

 
ed ­ rader
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Nov 07, 2009 13:09 |  #1

"There are many people who think that the 7D can even rival the 5D Mark II at high ISO. However, make no mistake, after my testing I have to say that although the 7D is quite good at high ISO by itself, it is still no match compared to the 5D Mark II. The 5D Mark II has at least 1 stop advantage I would say at high ISO. Not only is the noise level less on the 5D Mark II, but detail retention is also noticeably better too. "

-- Roland Lim

http://rolandlim.wordpress.co​m/2009/11/06/canon-eos-7d-review/ (external link)

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Mr. ­ Clean
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Nov 07, 2009 13:14 |  #2

I think Roland's review is very well done! I don't think anyone would have though otherwise on the camera performance :D hopefully...
I think the 7D is arguably one of Canon's best releases though.


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e02937
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Nov 07, 2009 13:26 |  #3

In all honesty, the idea of an 18mp APS-C camera even being compared to an FF camera is a testament to the success of the 7d at high ISO.


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Nov 07, 2009 13:31 |  #4

The DPRE review of the 7D is out too, and although they did not compare it to the 5DII, they had a positive review of the 7D. Unfortunately, both reviewers admit they are not sports photographers and neither presents more definitive tests of the new AF system.

So I'm going to wait until Ed writes his review of his new ID Mark IV in December before I decide whether to go 7D or 1D Mark IV. ;)



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ed ­ rader
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Nov 07, 2009 13:35 |  #5

merlin2375 wrote in post #8972798 (external link)
In all honesty, the idea of an 18mp APS-C camera even being compared to an FF camera is a testament to the success of the 7d at high ISO.

i'd say it's more a case of deja vu all over again as i recall early reports of the 40d claimed it beat the 5d in in ISO and IQ. we even had a couple of POTN boys make that claim early on.

of course the 40d turned out to be about a stop behind the 5d and it looks like the 7d is about that much behind the 5d II.

cameras are getting better no doubt but 1.6 crop will never outperform current cameras with larger sensors in terms of IQ and ISO.

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ed ­ rader
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Nov 07, 2009 13:39 |  #6

Timphoto wrote in post #8972819 (external link)
The DPRE review of the 7D is out too, and although they did not compare it to the 5DII, they had a positive review of the 7D. Unfortunately, both reviewers admit they are not sports photographers and neither presents more definitive tests of the new AF system.

So I'm going to wait until Ed writes his review of his new ID Mark IV in December before I decide whether to go 7D or 1D Mark IV. ;)

wouldn't that be something :D. maybe xmas 2010 or 2011 .............

your best shot at an early review is Nicksan but remember the 60-day pink cloud rule ;).

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e02937
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Nov 07, 2009 13:40 |  #7

ed rader wrote in post #8972831 (external link)
i'd say it's more a case of deja vu all over again as i recall early reports of the 40d claimed it beat the 5d in in ISO and IQ. we even had a couple of POTN boys make that claim early on.

of course the 40d turned out to be about a stop behind the 5d and it looks like the 7d is about that much behind the 5d II.

cameras are getting no doubt but 1.6 crop will never outperform current cameras with larger sensors in terms of IQ and ISO.

ed rader

I agree with you on that one. I just don't know who think they should or could. There's a cost differential and some pretty obvious techincal barriers with adding more MP. I know everyone thinks they can just lower the MP count but I'm not sure that's the answer.

I didn't buy my 7d expecting it to best a 5dii. I did buy it however with the thought that it would outperform the 50d. Interesting to look back...

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=755335


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Nov 07, 2009 13:40 |  #8

ed rader wrote in post #8972733 (external link)
"There are many people who think that the 7D can even rival the 5D Mark II at high ISO. However, make no mistake, after my testing I have to say that although the 7D is quite good at high ISO by itself, it is still no match compared to the 5D Mark II. The 5D Mark II has at least 1 stop advantage I would say at high ISO. Not only is the noise level less on the 5D Mark II, but detail retention is also noticeably better too. "

-- Roland Lim

http://rolandlim.wordpress.co​m/2009/11/06/canon-eos-7d-review/ (external link)

ed rader

I think anyone thinking the 7D's IQ would "rival" that of the 5D2 at high ISO is smoking some bad weed. But feature wise, 7D walks all over the 5D2.

Now we all will have to wait to see what Canon decides to do. Will they keep the 5D-line the same and instead, come out with the mythical 3D (7D-like AF but FF). Or will they wait another 1.5-2 years for the 5d3 and incorporate the 7D AF.

I'm pulling this speculation out of my rear-end, but if the 60D (assuming 1st Q release) still retains the old 9-point AF, then I fear the worst for the 5d3. Because it would suggest that Canon rather introduce a new line (ala 7D) than to futs with and established one.


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epatt250
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Nov 07, 2009 13:42 |  #9

I enjoyed that review and it kind of amazes me that nobody mentions how amazing the IQ of the 5D2 is. Forget the noise and look at the IQ as a whole. The 5D2 is just as good as it gets right now. Even after a local contrast enhancement was done on the 7D it still isnt as good as the 5D.

I still think the 7D is a great replacement for my 40D that I hardly ever use since getting a 5D. But once or twice a year I do like the crop factor, and the 40D still makes a fine backup body. For as little as I use it, I will probably stick with the 40D.. esp since until I had a 5D I thought the IQ was fine.


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ed ­ rader
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Nov 07, 2009 13:44 |  #10

jwcdds wrote in post #8972845 (external link)
I think anyone thinking the 7D's IQ would "rival" that of the 5D2 at high ISO is smoking some bad weed. But feature wise, 7D walks all over the 5D2.

Now we all will have to wait to see what Canon decides to do. Will they keep the 5D-line the same and instead, come out with the mythical 3D (7D-like AF but FF). Or will they wait another 1.5-2 years for the 5d3 and incorporate the 7D AF.

I'm pulling this speculation out of my rear-end, but if the 60D (assuming 1st Q release) still retains the old 9-point AF, then I fear the worst for the 5d3. Because it would suggest that Canon rather introduce a new line (ala 7D) than to futs with and established one.

i think anyone waiting for a canon "D3" is going to be disappointed. at it's pricepoint the 5d II can't be touched.

ed rader


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ed ­ rader
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Nov 07, 2009 13:46 |  #11

epatt250 wrote in post #8972850 (external link)
I enjoyed that review and it kind of amazes me that nobody mentions how amazing the IQ of the 5D2 is. Forget the noise and look at the IQ as a whole. The 5D2 is just as good as it gets right now. Even after a local contrast enhancement was done on the 7D it still isnt as good as the 5D.

I still think the 7D is a great replacement for my 40D that I hardly ever use since getting a 5D. But once or twice a year I do like the crop factor, and the 40D still makes a fine backup body. For as little as I use it, I will probably stick with the 40D.. esp since until I had a 5D I thought the IQ was fine.

they are consumed with what the 5d II isn't. they are missing the forest for the trees :D.

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epatt250
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Nov 07, 2009 13:58 |  #12

Yea and I hate the outside focus points too ( I just have the original 5D but same deal ). Nice being able to use every focus point on the 40D and know they will work. So I am pained by the 5D2 shortcomings but at the end of the day, I am willing to work a little harder and make a little sacrifices for the best image possible. I even use the 5D for sports and sure I miss some fps and focus probably takes a tad longer to lock, meaning I may not be getting all the shots I can get with the 40D, but the shots I do get are so much better. So its worth it. I would rather have quality over quantity.

The larger format guys give up alot more than the 5D does in the name of IQ.. yet they do it and people think larger formats are the ultimate. I am not willing to give up that much to get what i think is an insignificant IQ upgrade if you are not wanting to print 20x30s at 300dpi. So I am willing to live with the shortcomings of the 5D series for the IQ it delivers.

Obviously the bulk of my photographical enjoyment is shooting people and landscape type stuff. If I was into wildlife and sports I would sing a different tune. I do like that stuff but I just dont get to shoot it much.

What I would really like to do is trade the 40D in on a 1D3, but its gonna have to come down some more first. The 1D3 is a 2nd body I would actually get some good usage out of instead of just sitting in the bag as a backup.


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amfoto1
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Nov 07, 2009 14:31 |  #13

Actually, if I recall, a lot of people thought the 5D2 fell well short of the 5D Classic when the newer model was first introduced. I wouldn't know, personally... I held off buying any full frame until there was some sort of dust control effort built in. It seems to me now that people have really learned how to optimize the files from the 5D2, and most are very happy with what it can produce (the 1Ds MkIV, when it appears, should be a real kick ass camera!)

"There are many people who think that the 7D can even rival the 5D Mark II at high ISO. However, make no mistake, after my testing I have to say that although the 7D is quite good at high ISO by itself, it is still no match compared to the 5D Mark II. The 5D Mark II has at least 1 stop advantage I would say at high ISO. Not only is the noise level less on the 5D Mark II, but detail retention is also noticeably better too. "

-- Roland Lim

Using the cameras alongside each other, I agree with this 100%.

I also feel the 5D2 still enjoys about one additional stop of usable high ISO performance (about 6400) compared to the 7D (about 3200). I only use full steps of ISO on both cameras, so it might be possible to eke out another 1/3 or 1/2 stop, one way or the other. And admittedly, my "testing" is far from very scienterrific... I just go shoot with the cameras with a variety of lenses and post process a lot of images. Using 50D a lot too, I'd put it about one stop further down the down the ladder (and the 40D along with it, no significant ISO performance diff. between 40 & 50D, but the 50D was still impressive considering the big increase in MP). For me, 50D's "usable" high ISO = 1600.

The AF of the 7D is a lot more responsive than the 5D2's. But the full framer is downright pokey compared to the 50D, too. I would guesstimate the FF camera takes roughly twice as long to find focus and simply doesn't track movement as well. The six hidden expansion points help it achieve whatever level of performance it does enjoy. I hate to think how the 5D2's AF would perform without those extra points (7D has expansion points, the 50D doesn't... I bet the 5D MKIII, when it appears, will have dual processors or a separate, dedicated AF processor).

But all that rich detail the 5D2 can deliver - like practically no other DSLR - makes the camera well worth putting up with some a few idiosyncracies, especially when doing certain, more deliberate and less frantic types of shooting. I like pairing up 1.6X format and 1X format cameras, too. This leverages one's lens kit nicely... (But I still found I wanted to add two or three lenses to my kit when I got the FF. ;))

Comparing the AF of the 7D to the 50D's AF, I really don't see a lot of difference... yet! But I've been using the 50D a lot longer and have figured out ways to make it's AF system do what I need it to do, with a high hit rate (read that as... most missed focus issues are "user error", not any fault of the camera).

Right out of the box the 7D's AF at least matches the 50D's. I suspect as I become more familiar with 7D and learn to tweak its AF system for a wide range of situations, it will work even better than 50D for me, which is saying a lot because I wasn't dissatisfied wih 50D AF at all. The 7D is a sports/news/BIF/moving target camera. I'd call it a 1D4 "lite". It's got a lot of other nice step-up features, besides ISO and AF performance. But the ISO and the AF are the main reaasons I am in the process of upgrading on a much faster schedule than I'd normally do. I really want to encourage Canon, for finally giving 1.6X some of the respect it deserves. They've been treating APS-C as a mid consumer/semi pro format, at best, in the past. The 7D is more of a pro/high end consumer camera, I think. Hope that makes sense!

I have commented elsewhere that I think the 7D is quite likely overkill for some people. In fact, anyone really new to using DSLR, I'd probably recommend a Rebel/xxxD or 50D instead of 7D. I can see where folks could get a bit lost in the added complexity and frustrated with the more sophisticated 7D, especially the AF system customizability. There's a real herd mentality stampeding toward the latest-and-greatest model right now. I suspect we'll be seeing some whining and complaints here soon, from folks who are simply in over their head with the 7D, would have been better served with Rebel or 50D. (I'm trying not to sound derogatory with this. For example, I think a 1D/1Ds would be a bit of an overkill for me and I've been shooting for 30+ years with a wide variety of cameras, a bit less than half of that time professionally.)


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Nov 07, 2009 14:32 |  #14

merlin2375 wrote in post #8972844 (external link)
I agree with you on that one. I just don't know who think they should or could. There's a cost differential and some pretty obvious techincal barriers with adding more MP. I know everyone thinks they can just lower the MP count but I'm not sure that's the answer.

I didn't buy my 7d expecting it to best a 5dii. I did buy it however with the thought that it would outperform the 50d. Interesting to look back...

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=755335

You and me both. I was ready to upgrade (from a 350D/XT - just about anything would have been an upgrade, although I've enjoyed the Rebel tremendously and learned a lot using it - it's still a very capable little camera) and was waiting for the 60D announcement to see if it would be enough better than the 50D to justify spending more, and they came out with the 7D instead. For me, the extra dollars for the 7D over 50D were worth it, and the savings compared to getting a 5D2 allowed me to get a 70-200 f/4 IS too. As a hobbyist shooter, the 7D is more than good enough for me.


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Nov 07, 2009 14:33 as a reply to  @ amfoto1's post |  #15

If bigger is better and $$$ is no option. At least for studio?

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