Bid for Service : Phographing new city hospital?

Park Street wrote in post #9024993
I would need a shot list to even start to bid this. 170 architectural images is a massive amount of work. I would bet that the 170 images would be spread out with some being architectural, some staff, some procedures, etc. Of course until you have a shot list there is no way to determine how long shooting this is going to take. My advice - Get more information.

I agree Park. I wouldn't even try to shoot this in one day. And learning to use a T&S lens on a job is a disaster waiting to happen. THIS IS NOT A WEDDING and you shouldn't even think of pricing and shooting under that mindset.

You are right this is an opportunity but it is a double edged sword. You also have to deliver the goods and 170 photos in one day for this kind of work is awfully aggressive. I work in healthcare almost everyday and I would never give up my copyright. If for some reason the client insisted I would tell them my concerns then adjust the price accordingly.

Also is there going to be an art director or graphic designer on location. If so, this will also be a time consideration. Have you ever worked with other creative people on a photo shoot? If there are going to be people in your shots, are there going to be hair,make-up and stylist on the shoot?

Small town or not like someone has already mentioned imaging equipment cost the same in B.F.E. as it does in L.A.

It's my normal practice. Why spend the time on a RFP if I have no interest in doing the work? Most pro ADs will tell me as we have a common interest in getting the work done right. Business clients will have seen my samples & are talking to me because they liked what they saw. Don't forget the "L factor", either. Everyone starts out with the Kit lens & would like to add an "L" for the same price, no? But they come up with the $s for the "L" because of the higher perceived quality of the results.

As for "leverage", you'll always have those people who will, or have to, put price before quality. For those who "have to" as in there just isn't enough money now, sometimes you can pare down the job for the present budget, & pick up the rest at a later time. For those who are just looking for the lowest bidder, let them educate themselves on the real cost of working that way & some of them will add a new concept to their vocabulary... "Reshoot".

A TS lens would be great for this, but keep a few things in mind.
1. The wider ones are f/4, which means they will be sharpest at f/8-11, & this might give you lighting headaches.
2. You can get much the same results with an XWA lens keeping the camera back absolutely vertical & cropping out the excess image +...
3. In some cases, you can use a longer focal length & shoot from a greater distance when the situation will allow it.

That's not a shot list, it's a wish list, & I suspect that they have no idea what they really need as opposed to what they say they want.
An AD will have a pretty good idea of what he needs for the "brochures, newspapers, posters, tradeshows backdrops, etc.", & will have rough concept layouts for you to work from. This is why I like working with pros. Most times the AD will be there on the day(s) of the shoot & will work with you. (They like to get out of the office, too.)
For these people, you're going to have to pin them down to provide an AD-clone who is responsible for being there through the entire shooting process. A "The Buck Stops Here" type of person who has some authority & who can smooth the way for you & assume responsibility for the content of the images. Otherwise be prepared for, "Why didn't you get this?", & "Who's that person? They don't work here", etc.

I suggest that, if/when you light & shoot, you work from the outside-in. Shoot the whole room, then move in for the MS (medium shots) & CUs (close-ups).

OTOH, maybe their expectations are that you'll just do a walk through & pop off some quick shots of everything you see. Either way, this will be a great "WTF WAS I THINKING?" experience for you. Good luck with it!

If its a public funded hospital it may be a closed bid process. They should supply you with a bid packet upon request.

SF

twistedinsight wrote in post #9024516
I will definitely make sure I retain the copyright, and that they will have unlimited use granted to them. The terms of the length of this copyright will not be up for discussion I have been told, so I will have to abide by their requests on this.

Forgive me for saying, but I'm not sure you understand "Copyright". You either hang on to it, or you don't. Make sure you know which is required.

twistedinsight wrote in post #9023962
...I have recently received a request for a bid to perform photography services for my town's new multi-million dollar Hospital...

My guess is they can afford for the job to be done properly!

TJ

If you aren't sure how to use a TS lens you may be better off renting the 14mm 2.8 from LensRentals.com.

http://www.lensrentals​.com …-14mm-f2.8-l-ii/for-canon

The TS would be great but if you don't understand how to use it you can get some seriously messed up shots.

However with this budget and them dictating copyright terms like that, I'd have to pass on the job.

I assisted a "real" architectural photographer a few years ago and we spent 2 - 3 hours lighting a single shot with small hot lights. Over an entire night of work I think we shot 4 photos total. He probably charged in excess of $10,000 for the night (he drove down from Tennessee, I can't remember his name for the life of me).

While they may not be looking for that kind of quality, I would at least want to properly light every location. That would take probably a full week for that set list and a small crew. So at least $10,000 over 5 days to pull that off. Plus you dictate the licensing terms.

Or you can just go in and snap some pictures for the day..

Unless you (and they) are prepared to and want to do a major, multi-day shoot with a series of shot setups, hiring crew to help, buying or renting equipment, etc., you could approach this on a much more rudimentary level. Just what is needed completely depends upon their expectations. Maybe they want a lot of sophisticated shots. Or maybe just a bunch done fairly quickly in a journalistic style. You really need to know, before you can put together a quote. You need to ask a whole lot more questions, before you can possibly quote the job.

Now, a lot of first time photo buyers simply do not understand licensing of images and ask for the ridiculous. Or sometimes experienced, savvy buyers start at the extreme and actually plan to negotiate back to something more reasonable.

I'd explain to them that it costs a great deal more to own all the copyrights outright, or to have completely exclusive, irrevocable right of use to all the images produced. Sure, you can do that, but it's very expensive and adds a great deal of unnecessary cost. People often think they need this sort of ownership of the images, when in fact a more reasonable and sensible deal would be better for them and everyone involved.

Here's how you can "explain" it to them. Your bid can have multiple offers for them to select from:

Under one offer - call it Option A - sure, go ahead and propose complete ownership of copyright, or the full, irrevocable usage license of all images. For a large shoot like this, I'd offer at somewhere between $10,000 and $25,000 per image, a heavily discounted rate. Let's say you go there over the course of five days and shoot 500 to 1000 images per day. Add it up, or just let them do the math. And help them realize that they are buying not only the good usable images but also all the outtakes for this amount. (If asked to do this with a smaller number of images, say a dozen or so, I'd increase the fee for transfer of copyright to between $50,000 and $100,000 per image. These are actually reasonable amounts, since an image sold for stock over a lifetime might have easily this value, or even greater.)

Alternatively, another choice called Option B might show ala carte licensing of selected images from the shoot (just the ones they need and want to use), with no transfer of copyright, and at a series of reasonable rates: brochure with press run of 10,000, single time image use, $250, renewable for a second press run for $150. Three years' display of low resolution image on website, $100 per image, renewable for an additional three years for $75 pers image. Images used in more prominent ways might be charged more. Images used in less prominent ways, less. That sort of thing. Be sure to cite a minimum number of images to be purchased (based upon what they tell you they will be needing), because you are discounting for volume. You can leave it open to additional negotiation, should they change the number of images they need.

Not saying these are the "correct" amounts, I'm just using some numbers for illustration purposes here. What you will be offering is going to depend upon the usage of each, individual image. They need to tell you in a lot more detail what they plan and need. Then you need to work throught them and calculate your offer. If it were me I'd offer a pretty favorable licensing fee in each case, since they plan to use a large number of images.

Neither of the above includes your day rate or expenses. These would be a separate part of the bid.

Figure the flat day rate you establish times the number of days you will be on site shooting. Part of your expenses will be post processing, which might be half your shooting rate, probably at least an equal number of days. There would be a charge for the "proof" DVD or CD. Also cost of any rental equipment, travel, meals, support staff, consumables related to the job, etc., etc., etc.

We don't know the going day rate for shooters in your area, nor do we know your level of experience. Normally I'd expect $1500 to $3000 day rate, where I live (half day rate of $800 to $1600). A top rated, nationally recognized specialist might charge $4000 to $5000 a day, and would likely come with higher expenses (travel, lodging).

Post-processing is often charged at one half the shooting rate, so $750-$1500 a day, but is usually calculated on an hourly basis.

Basically, I think you need to ask them a whole lot more questions to have any hope of providing a quote. They might get some kid with a kit camera off Craigslist to shoot the whole thing for $500 and turn over a disk, but only get a few marginally usable images. Or they might bring in a top pro with tons of experience and end up paying 6 figures for the shoot. Or choose something in-between, such as you.

You should get and quickly read/consult the books "Pricing Photography" and "Good Business Practices for Photographers" off Amazon, if you don't already have them. These will help you put together a complete quote that's fair to both yourself and your client, as well as a fair and professional contract for the job, image licensing agreements and any other necessary forms. You'll have to adapt their recommended pricing to your situation, to a large volume job.

Oh, and part of your bid and contract should require proper model & property release ("Good Biz Practices" includes a sample of the ASMP release, which many consider one of the best) for all recognizeable people and places in the images.

You cant just bid blindly. If its a legit bid process they will have everything laid out in a bid packet just like they did with the contractor that built the place. They can charge you a fee for a bid pack but if its a legit bid process they must provide the packet. If they are asking for estimates which are different from bids then you have to do your own homework.

SF

Like mentioned above, will there be people in these shots? Or are they empty rooms just before the hospital opens? If people are involved, it sounds like you'll need quite a few model releases. That too takes time to manage. Could you bid something like: $ XXX for the shoot and CD and $XXX per hour for post processing?

I work in healthcare (photography) and most of my clients will get bids on big jobs but they usually have already made the choice of who they are going to use. It rarely has anything to do with the lowest bid. In fact in true open bids usually the really low bids and the high bids get thrown out.

Lots of good advice given here twistedinsight, with regard to the complexity and size of the project.

I would also join the bandwagon. This is a multi-week job if you factor in all the work. Client meetings, scheduling, brainstorming, rescheduling, pre-production, production, post production, paperwork (releases, licensing, registration, bid, revisions, delivery memos, etc). Make sure all that time is accounted for.

Based on my experiences I can easily see this being a $10K to $30K project, depending on the rights asked for, the production values the client may be looking for, and the market size/area. I can't see it being smaller even in the small markets. Pricing not only takes into consideration the market size, but also the client size, how the images will be used, the photographers experience and skill level, the creativity and complexity of the project, and so on.

The size of the market does have bearing in pricing, but that doesn't mean everything gets thrown out the window either. Even in small markets, industry standards still apply. They may be smaller or less restrictive, modified in some way, but they are still there.

Pricing photography is very different depending on the industry. Editorial, retail, architecture, weddings, journalism, advertising, scientific/technical, etc, are all priced in different ways. Applying one to another generally doesn't work, and its also a giveaway to those within the industry that the photographer is inexperienced within that industry.

And all the specifics need to be addressed before any pricing can take place. I.e., there are 10 shots listed in the Labortaory. Without specifics, those could take 5 minutes each, or 5 hours each. A huge difference in cost which needs to be reflected in the bid. The same goes for all the other items.

And as mentioned, are they thinking of using models or employees? Are makeup services required? How much retouching are they expecting on the exteriors to clean up telephone poles, wires, etc, or just leave them all in? Who is responsible for obtain releases for people in the images? Are released even required? Are the surgical shots just the empty room, or during an actual or staged surgery? Are any of the rooms or scenes staged? The list goes on and on. If you don't ask and get it written down, you can bet there will be confusion, misunderstandings, and it will negatively effect someones budget.

Then there are the contractual issues. Ie, if a model sues because someone didn't get a release in a situation where it was required, is the photographer or client held responsible. If its not spelled out, guess who gets stuck with the legal fees? Or perhaps the job was delivered and the files were not prepared properly for the print process used and the clients job was ruined. If that's not covered in the bid, the photogapher could be held responsible for the print run which could be in the tens of thousands. These details are usually worked out in the bids.

The main point that I am trying to make with the examples above, is that there is a whole lot more to a job of this size then just the photography. A lack of industry, technical, or business experience could easily allow the photographer to be taken advantage of, unwillingly exposed to potentially devastating financial risks, poor performance damaging their reputation in their marketing area, not delivering to a clients expectations because their visions were different, and many other pitfalls.

Make sure you know how deep the water is, and where the rocks are, before diving in. And since its business and involves an exchange of money, make sure its all spelled out what happens is someone does hit a rock

Floriantrojer.com wrote in post #9029996
The $15K guy may get the job because of 500 light stands he will bring and the price may convince the hospital he'll do a great job. But maybe they'll see that one is not worth 10K more over you, who may do an almost equally good job. YOU JUST CAN'T KNOW.

I disagree. IMO if a client looks at a group of photographers portfolios, its pretty easy to sum up their general skills, experience in specific areas, overall production quality, etc. And genereally people at that level of an organization are also experienced at buying media sevices, and have the basic knowledge to assess a portfolio from a photographer or designer.

SO much great information here, it's MUCH appreciated!!

As per the instructions in the bid package, there will not be any people allowed in the images. They want the images to strictly include JUST the facilities and no people whatsoever. The pictures will be taken the week before opening the facilities, in February.

This has given me a lot of needed information, and if anyone else has anything else to supply please let me know! I really appreciate it!

I was curious if you got the job and if so how did you price it and how did it all turn out?

As am I, I just read this thread and im interested in what came of this.

Hey everyone,

I put in my bid for $7500, which would include everything they asked for except they would have unlimited print/publication rights for 5 years. I didn't hear anything back

This town is cheap. I'm eager to see what comes from it. There are some good photographers out there in Mag (one is a_morris on these boards) and hopefully one of them got it, but I have yet to hear.

We shall see, when the site comes up I'll revisit this post and show you images from the lucky photographer that took over this project