I'm a photographer, not a terrorist!

Yet another example of a largely ineffective and meaningless symbol of 'doing something' at the expense of the inconvenience to one particular group...photographers, airline travellers...to make the rest of the naive population feel safer

The best part about the airline thing is even aircrew need to go through the procedures. Seems a bit silly to be honest :P

I'm starting to understand why all those anarchists don't like cops; constantly meddling in legal activity in an effort to appease the masses. :P

beeng wrote in post #9128248
The best part about the airline thing is even aircrew need to go through the procedures. Seems a bit silly to be honest :P

I saw something very funny at security at Mumbai airport. The guys at the desk were insisting that the BA Captain who was about to fly a full 747 to LHR hand over the penknife he was carrying in his flight-bag. The last thing we heard before the conversation continued in private was, "Of course you can have it, but if you do this F---ing plane is going nowhere!"

neil_r wrote in post #9128304
I saw something very funny at security at Mumbai airport. The guys at the desk were insisting that the BA Captain who was about to fly a full 747 to LHR hand over the penknife he was carrying in his flight-bag. The last thing we heard before the conversation continued in private was, "Of course you can have it, but if you do this F---ing plane is going nowhere!"

haha I would do the same thing. As a pilot (or any aircrew), it is always a good idea to have some cutting device on you. There's nothing worse than going down in the ocean and getting tangled up in your seat straps, netting, or the like and not having a knife with you.

beeng wrote in post #9128248
I'm starting to understand why all those anarchists don't like cops; constantly meddling in legal activity in an effort to appease the masses. :P

The funny thing about anarchy, as what my one political science professor spent discussing one day, is that they're not successful because ironically, there's no organization to succeed. There was some anarchy during the late-18th and early-19th Centuries, but they all died out because of lack of central authority. And you can't, by definition, have an anarchist government, so that vacuum would lead to some power hungry people taking over and taking out their frustration on innocents, and let's call them, photographers!

beeng wrote in post #9128248
The best part about the airline thing is even aircrew need to go through the procedures. Seems a bit silly to be honest :P

The Security Pendulum swings both ways though...

I recently flew Detroit to Phoenix and the Captain would not allow the Gate Agent to open the Jetway door nor would he allow her onboard his aircraft because she wasn't wearing the proper Airline Credential.

She had her Airport badge on but not the specific US Airways badge.

I actually was glad to see a Commercial Pilot take the issue seriously but was fully prepared to walk over and tell them both that if the P*ssing Contest was going to delay the flight, I would report them both to the local FSDO (Flight Standards District Office / FAA)

nphsbuckeye wrote in post #9129291
The funny thing about anarchy, as what my one political science professor spent discussing one day, is that they're not successful because ironically, there's no organization to succeed. There was some anarchy during the late-18th and early-19th Centuries, but they all died out because of lack of central authority. And you can't, by definition, have an anarchist government, so that vacuum would lead to some power hungry people taking over and taking out their frustration on innocents, and let's call them, photographers!

Yup; good luck trying to explain these sorts of practical things to them though :P

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #9129328
The Security Pendulum swings both ways though...

I recently flew Detroit to Phoenix and the Captain would not allow the Gate Agent to open the Jetway door nor would he allow her onboard his aircraft because she wasn't wearing the proper Airline Credential.

She had her Airport badge on but not the specific US Airways badge.

I actually was glad to see a Commercial Pilot take the issue seriously but was fully prepared to walk over and tell them both that if the P*ssing Contest was going to delay the flight, I would report them both to the local FSDO (Flight Standards District Office / FAA)

Well... it is the AC's prerogative; but depending on what she was trying to do I'm sure he was being quite ridiculous. I think a lot of that attitude comes from higher though. The FAA (or their company) tells them that security is the number 1 priority (and sadly as a result quality of service decreases). About 2 months ago myself and 30 of my not-so-close friends sat in a WestJet 737 for an hour and a half because 1 passenger was late. I have no idea why they did not just leave (I mean it's not like they had extra people on board or anything ). That was a case where the silly bureaucratic rules showed how much damage they can do. Because I was delayed for an hour and half I missed my connecting flights; all because one person (who never showed up) was deemed some sort of security or administration issue.

beeng wrote in post #9129414
Well... it is the AC's prerogative; but depending on what she was trying to do I'm sure he was being quite ridiculous.

Actually, I think he just wanted to p*ss on a Gate Agent. There's not a lot of love between flight crews and gate agents at US Airways. Especially if one is "Cactus" (America West) and the other is "US" (US Air)

I think a lot of that attitude comes from higher though. The FAA (or their company) tells them that security is the number 1 priority (and sadly as a result quality of service decreases). About 2 months ago myself and 30 of my not-so-close friends sat in a WestJet 737 for an hour and a half because 1 passenger was late. I have no idea why they did not just leave (I mean it's not like they had extra people on board or anything ). That was a case where the silly bureaucratic rules showed how much damage they can do. Because I was delayed for an hour and half I missed my connecting flights; all because one person (who never showed up) was deemed some sort of security or administration issue.

May have been waiting on a VIP or such... Many, many years ago, I was on a BOAC flight from Zurich to London and we waited probably an hour because the actor Anthony Quale was late and they wouldn't leave without him.

So long as the inspections don't reach "Interogation" level, I don't have much issue with the TSA. They're tasked with a no-win situation so as long as they don't hassle me, I don't hassle them. The folks working at Sky Harbor in Phoenix actually do a very good job and I've yet to run accross any of them that think any of my camera gear is dangerous. One or two even ask which lenses I'm carrying based on what they see on the XRay screen.

Bottom Line: Flying is a privaledge and not a right. When you're on a commercial aircraft, you're in their office much more so than you're in your living room. You can't just waltz into an office building and do as you please and a commercial jet's really no different.

Act like a professiona adult and you get treated like a professional adult.

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #9129573
Bottom Line: Flying is a privaledge and not a right.

You know, there is middle ground between those two extremes. I don't have a right to be granted service, but once granted service, and having paid for it, I do have a right to receive it to reasonable standards.

The airlines are quick to point fingers in all sorts of directions when things go wrong, but in fact they do a dreadful job of many things, right up and down the line. And those who are forced to travel by air as a part of their work don't have a right to fly, but I suppose that means they don't have a right to work. It sure feels like a requirement to me rather than an option. I despise being jammed between demanding bosses and clients who squeeze my schedule to the point where flying is no longer reliable, and flight crews and gate agents who have forgotten that those travelers melting down in front of them have often been put in an impossible situation, and they need solutions, not excuses or the dictation of rules, most of which are driven by cost considerations despite what they say.

The gate agent may not care if I get on a flight or not, or may not care if I get a comfortable seat or not. But my clients on the other end expect me to be at full status from the moment I step off the plane. My bosses won't let me fly the previous day, because the project won't pay the hours. And so on. For the flight crews, being there is their job and when they arrive at the other end they usually are off work. For the passengers--especially business travelers--being there is what they must endure before they can do their job and arriving means that work just starts.

I have witnessed really shockingly bad manners from TSA officials in the face of desperate requests by travelers (desperate because they are about to miss that critical flight), who are not in desperate situations by their own choosing. Many of those seemed quite clearly to me to be expressions of authority for the sake of expressing authority, which is the topic of this thread. They seem to enjoy it. Gate agents and flight crews used to set a high standard but that has diminished terribly, on the whole. There are always shining lights who demonstrate how it should be, and they invariably get a better response from those desperate and harried travelers, but they are in a decreasing minority.

Sorry, you touched a nerve.

Rick "whose driving radius for work trips has worked its way up to 450 miles" Denney

beeng wrote in post #9129414
Well... it is the AC's prerogative; but depending on what she was trying to do I'm sure he was being quite ridiculous. I think a lot of that attitude comes from higher though. The FAA (or their company) tells them that security is the number 1 priority (and sadly as a result quality of service decreases). About 2 months ago myself and 30 of my not-so-close friends sat in a WestJet 737 for an hour and a half because 1 passenger was late. I have no idea why they did not just leave (I mean it's not like they had extra people on board or anything ). That was a case where the silly bureaucratic rules showed how much damage they can do. Because I was delayed for an hour and half I missed my connecting flights; all because one person (who never showed up) was deemed some sort of security or administration issue.

Luggage may have been checked, and the person not showing up for flight could be an indication of explosives within the checked luggage, where the bomb planter might not want to become a victim of their own wrongdoing. Very valid reason to NOT fly without that passenger.

You do realize you're preaching to the Choir, right?

I fly twice a week anywhere from 30 to 45 weeks a year.

rdenney wrote in post #9129720
You know, there is middle ground between those two extremes. I don't have a right to be granted service, but once granted service, and having paid for it, I do have a right to receive it to reasonable standards.

There was a time when travel by air was quite comfortable and refined. But, people complained that it was too expensive and only available to the uber rich. They demanded air travel be made available to everyman and guess what? They go what they wanted... Greyhound With Wings.

Maybe those who thought deregulation was a good idea were wrong? Airlines were kicked to the curb and told to fend for themselves so how are they any different than GM when it comes to labor costs, materials, etc... Until deregulation, the airlines were de facto non-profit organizations. Now they have to fend for themselves.

Again, you're not telling me anything I don't already know. They don't play NFL, NHL, NBA or MLB games in my house. They don't race NASCAR here either. Unlike many folks, I travel because my actual job is at the other end of the trip. Not a job requirement or a job sidebar but my actual job. The event I'm crewed to help cover is going to happen whether I'm there or not. Most people can reschedule a meeting or a presentation but I don't have the chops to ask the Cowboys or Hawks or Red Wings to reschedule a game 'cause I'm held up at an airport or I blow a connection. Oh, and I sure as hell can't "videoconference" my job either as many people can.

Not the Airlines fault...

Frankly, not the airlines fault either. Should they be more understanding? Ideally, yes .. But your pressures and your issues are just that, yours. Trust me, I've tried every argument under the sun to get a Ticket Agent to undertsand my point of view from above regarding events happening and my needing to be there. Ultimately, the problem is the travel department at the network and not me (or the airline.) If they need me there on a mission critical basis, then arrange it properly. I'm NOT going to die a heart attack over someone else's penny pinching policies. It's not worth the stress...

Sorry to

So, how would you prefer the TSA do the job with which they're tasked?
Would you feel safe knowing that the TSA may have cut corners or slacked off because the guy/gal next to you pouted a little at security and they got a free pass? I sure wouldn't. 50,000 flyers a day through an average Class Bravo airport and how exactly is the TSA supposed to have either the time or the resources to determine if someone's "up against it" for real or if it's a ploy?

Seriously, would you "enjoy" having to deal with you on a daily basis? I know for sure I wouldn't want to have to deal with me.

Again, put yourself in their shoes. They're under the same performance scrutiny, the same budget pressures, the same productivity plans as any employee at any other company but the bonus is, they get to also deal with the flying public and lift a couple tons of overpacked suitcases on a daily basis. Can't imagine why they'd be a little surly sometimes...

And I won't even touch the fact that you mentioned Flight Crews in the same breath as now you've touched a nerve and you really don't want to know what I think about how the public sees pilots and I also don't want to get banned from POTN.

If it sucks that much, quit and find a gig that doesn't require you to travel as much or at least one that allows you to travel in a manner where you can be most effective and productive. Life's too short to stress over the things you can't control and commercial flying is NOT going to get any better any time soon (if at all...)

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #9129573
May have been waiting on a VIP or such... Many, many years ago, I was on a BOAC flight from Zurich to London and we waited probably an hour because the actor Anthony Quale was late and they wouldn't leave without him.

That's retarded :P
He should have chartered an airplane like the rest of the rich & famous

beeng wrote in post #9130044
That's retarded :P
He should have chartered an airplane like the rest of the rich & famous

It's not like he was a BIG star or anything.

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #9129996
Maybe those who thought deregulation was a good idea were wrong? Airlines were kicked to the curb and told to fend for themselves so how are they any different than GM when it comes to labor costs, materials, etc... Until deregulation, the airlines were de facto non-profit organizations. Now they have to fend for themselves.

Airlines were deregulated in the late 70's. My extensive business travel started 15 years later, and the degradation in service I've seen has been since then. I don't think deregulation can take the blame here. Poor business practices, lack of competition at too many big airports, and many other reasons crowd in front of it in line. If costs can't support prices, then raise prices and demand will drop. The problem is that current airline practices favor the budget-traveling tourist at the expense of business travelers, especially those who don't travel enough to get privileges.

I only wish that were true.

Part of the problem with airlines is that they assign fault. It's not a fault issue. It's a customer requirements issue. They have not designed their service model around the requirements of their customers. When I make that mistake, I lose business and risk getting fired. I'm frankly getting a little tired of everyone else being able to degrade their service EXCEPT me.

If my pressures represent a common scenario, and they are ignoring those pressures and saying they are my--the customer's--fault, then no wonder they are losing money, and no wonder they are unable to charge prices that will cover their costs. They have devalued their service to the point where it's not worth the higher price.

As you have said, you can always do something else for a living. Of course, for most folks, it's not that easy.

Forget my company. Let's say I'm working on a government contract. The government department is spending your money, and those you elect put in place half a million accountants whose (well-paid) job it is to squeeze money out of contracts. They want me at a meeting on the other coast. I tell them that 4-hour afternoon meeting will require 24 hours of my time--a day to travel there, a day for the meeting, and a day to travel back. So, they are paying four times what the meeting costs to have me there. Now, I could fly out the morning of the meeting, attend the meeting, and fly back that evening. That will require a 20-hour day from me, but I'll only bill them 8 hours. Let's say I don't want to do that, and I bid 24 hours of my time for work like this. My competition bids 12 hours. They get the work--even if they are not as competent.

I am not a beginner at this stuff. Most of my clients are public agencies and they are the ones applying the pressure. The next time you complain about $600 toilet seats, remember that most of that is paying the overhead of dealing with issues like this.

Respect as a customer.

The issues I have witness had nothing to do with security. In one case, a person ran across the entire length of a major east-coast airport (I watched him), and slid up to the short security line right at the same time the TSA supervisor was trying to close that line. Any respectful person would have closed the line behind the guy, but this one closed the line in front of him, literally just as he was arriving. The TSA supervisor directed him to another much longer line in the next group some distance away, and the guy very politely ask to be allowed to stay in this line because he was trying to make the last tight connection of the evening. The TSA supervisor's response was, "No." He then turned away from the guy and walked away. I know people get jaded, but this guy at this moment made the entire U.S. Government look bad, and every person in line noticed it and audibly grumbled about it. That is one of dozens of examples.

In contrast, I have been treated with noticeably greater politeness and respect at Narita, Heathrow, and Dubai, just within the last several years. That doesn't mean inefficiency (those Tokyo passport control people are absolutely not inefficient!), and it doesn't mean compromising security. It means treating people with respect and just a modicum of sensitivity to the stress everyone endures when traveling by air these days.

I do. The luggage they are complaining about lifting is the same luggage I just lifted. They are in their 20's and 30's and do it for a living. I'm in my 50's and my living doesn't start until I get to the other end.

You make it sound as though the airlines are the only service providers in the whole world who deal with customers who are in stressful conditions. The question is, why are they stressed? Partly it's because the airlines keep them in a state of ignorance. They don't know what to expect, but they do know that at any moment tightly dictated plans can be arbitrarily upset (maybe it isn't arbitrary, but since the airlines rarely tell the truth about what's really happening--assuming they know--it is perceived as arbitrary). I have learned the code, such as a one-hour delay means that the delay is longer than an hour because they will never post more than a one-hour delay. I have learned how to ask specific questions, such as "has the equipment left the ground yet?" Most people don't know the lingo, and just sit in the waiting area fretting because they don't know anything except that something's wrong. Half the time, I get blown off even when I ask specific questions politely.

By the way, I have a cousin who is a pilot for American, another cousin who is a senior flight attendant for United, and another cousin who is a pilot for Continental. I know they face stresses, too--we've talked about these issues a lot. But I also know that the ones who bring light to their work find that it multiplies, and those are fewer and fewer as time goes on.

That's why my driving range has increased to 450 miles. But I'm now at the limit of what the government will tolerate. I am in a position within my industry where no matter where I work, I will have to travel. Why should I set aside my career because it is foolish of me to expect to be treated with respect by someone to whom I'm paying large sums of money? I started in this business 30 years ago. You know better than that.

Rick "who would fly a lot more--at high price--if it wasn't so unpleasant and unpredictable" Denney