How Valuable is a Degree in Photography??

RDKirk wrote in post #9133709
Working with other commercial/advertising professionals (most of whom will have art or business degrees) tends to make a degree important in those circumstances. I don't believe it would have to be in photography specifically, but if not photography in specific, then either in art in general or in business. But in that environment, having gone to a good photography school is often the first step to being networked into the business.

For a person who intends to run his own retail-level photography business, a degree in photography can be a waste of time and money. Even a degree in "business administration" can be a waste of time and money for a small businessman.

Most (not all, but most) "business administration" and marketing bachelor's degrees from universities are intended to create "corporate cogs," not small businesspeople, unless you find one specifically geared for it. You can find such programs more readily at community colleges than major universities.

Those community college programs are also often taught by small businesspeople in those same communities--getting to know them gets you networked--in this case, going to the local community college serves a similar purpose to the big-city commercial photographer going to a major photography school. As a small businessperson, what you have to know to run a retail photography business is the same as what your barber has to know. Small business marketing is a very different animal from corporate marketing.

Outside of product and archetectural photography (which can be extremely technical) and some other technical fields, it's a lot more important to learn about art in general than photographic technology in particular. Technology changes every year--the basic principles of form and color and how homo sapiens reacts to them have existed for thousands of years.

I agree but learning LIGHT and how to see it and use it are whats going to separate the good photographers from the not so good. LIGHT its what its all about. How many pros do you know that don't understand quality of light. All the great photographers get it but it takes years to fully get and if you're in the right school you'll be years ahead of most because of the time you spent learning how to use and see light.

School will force you out of your comfort zones. In fact a good one will have you working there most of the time. How many photographers actually discipline themselves to work outside that zone on their own. Not many. You see it her anytime anyone suggest using a different format or sticking with a single focal length for a week or shooting totally different subject matter than you normally shoot.

I'm not saying it can't be done. A lot of the greats were self taught but they all put the in time and and worked extensively at learning the craft and most seldom took the EASY road. Steichen once said that it takes YEARS for a photographer to get past the technical struggle and move into true self expression and its still true today.

I also wanted to say for me working for other successful photographers instead of going out on my own right away was so valuable. I worked for very low pay but I look at it as a continuation of my education. I learned SO MUCH and would recommend that to anyone. Make your mistakes in the learning process in school and on someone else's dime so you have most of the kinks worked out when you hang out your shingle.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #9133996
I agree but ....

I think the difference in our outlooks is based on the difference of our genres. In the commercial/advertising area, I do not dispute you at all.

In the personal commission/retail sales area, it's a very different economic dynamic. The major difference between a personal-commission photographer who can compete against GWCs and one who can't is not technical expertise, it's marketing and business expertise specialized for person-to-person sales. A mediocre photographer who is an excellent marketer and businessperson will survive better than an excellent photographer who is a mediocre marketer and businessperson.

Once upon a time (back in the 80s), being apprenticed to a working photographer was certainly the way to go, but that's practically impossible today across most areas of the country. By "apprentice" I don't mean a mere "second shooter," I'm talking about someone who is brought in and given opportunity to learn the business, inside and out. That seldom happens anymore--such masters are hard to find.

Most of those photographers who are good enough and successful enough don't take apprentices anymore, they do workshops. One of the major benefits of membership in PPA or WPPI is the opportunity to gain personal associations with successful photographers so that even if they don't take you on as an actual apprentice, they will at least share their knowledge with you.

But again, the major difference between success and failure at the personal-commission retail level is not technical and artistic excellence, it's marketing and business excellence.

I mentioned earlier I don't know how much it would help in weddings/portraits though my education opened some doors even there because of my knowledge of lighting and my darkroom skills did help me get a full time job with one of the real high end portrait/wedding photographers in this area doing his large format commercial work, portraits and custom color and B&W printing. Knowledge in ones field in, my opinion can, never be a bad thing.

It seems the survey is that if you're working for someone or high end commercial, knock yourself out obtaining a BFA. If you're going to work for yourself, make sure you're really good at marketing.

nphsbuckeye wrote in post #9135234
It seems the survey is that if you're working for someone or high end commercial, knock yourself out obtaining a BFA. If you're going to work for yourself, make sure you're really good at marketing.

Your work had better be killer at what you do or the marketing won't be worth a nickel especially with all the GWCs out there. You need to figure out a way to keep them from being your competition. If you don't deliver, the words gets around pretty quick. If you have a happy client they might tell 2 people. If they're unhappy they tell 10.

Being extremely knowledgeable in your field is never a bad thing and I've found most business is pretty much common sense anyway.

Figure out what you are as a photographer. Identify your competition. Identify your client Figure out what type of communication you need to reach that client. Keep your spending in line with your cash flow. Always deliver and ALWAYS treat your clients with respect. It ain't rocket science.

The thing thats going to keep the GWCs of your back is find a way to keep them from being your competition and I gotta tell ya being very good at what you do is a great start and being educated is only one piece that can separate you. Make it so your clients wouldn't consider them either having a certain expertise in a field that you need inside knowledge of.

Its not the paper thats as important with education as the actual knowledge and the confidence that knowledge brings. And then there the most important part the connections you make.

Also an education is only as valuable as what you do with it.

I strongly disagree; I would rather be a master marketer than a master photographer if I'm going to own a photo business. Marketing, afterall, convinces people to buy 21 MP cameras that they don't need.

And, I know about education and such, I went to college.

How valuable is a degree in anything? Depends how good your education was and what you did.

Experience is worth a lot more in a lot of cases, for a lot of people that rings true here too.

An academic with no experience may not know how to do the job as well as someone with 25 years of experience in the same job. Though the training the academic has may be more relevent, broader, more recent...without the real working exp you lack a lot

So how valuable is a degree in photography? Depends on you I guess, if you just read the theory and don't practise it then what's the point ? I could read books about cars all day and never fix one..while I'd know all about cars inside and out from books and where everything is, perhaps how to fix things; i wouldn't have the knowledge that experience could teach me if i had the exp on top of that to apply my knowledge.

Fun questions

Karl Johnston wrote in post #9135718
How valuable is a degree in anything? Depends how good your education was and what you did.

Experience is worth a lot more in a lot of cases, for a lot of people that rings true here too.

I've learned more practical engineering on the job then I did in my degree programs.

But without at least a BSME I would never have been able to get an engineering job to start learning.

This is not the case in a lot of fields (like photography), but there are several jobs where the bar to admision to the field is a degree of some kind.

nphsbuckeye wrote in post #9135716
I strongly disagree; I would rather be a master marketer than a master photographer if I'm going to own a photo business. Marketing, afterall, convinces people to buy 21 MP cameras that they don't need.

And, I know about education and such, I went to college.

We'll see how that works for ya in the future. If you don't have a strong specialty with strong skills then the GWCs are going to be your competition. I've been watching the trends for a very long time now and if you ain't got the skills, connections and a specialty that requires special skill sets your gonna get eaten alive no mater how well you market. Well I guess if you compete with the GWCs price wise but you won't buy the house and send the kids to college at those prices.

I just shot some billboards and almost lost the job because I wasn't medium format. I convinced the art director that we could successfully bump up the image size by showing him some previous things I had done with genuine fractals and it worked just fine. So in a lot of cases 21 MPs is almost a necessity.

Kinda funny the ones that don't have the degree always say ya don't need it but the ones the have the degree in photography I don't hear saying that they wish they didn't have it. It could mean the difference between shooting wedding for 1200 a wedding or doing commercial work for 2K and up a day.

I can do the math and I'll take the education and the decent living. Oh thats right I did.

I wouldn't be working in the field I now am in if not for my degree or be near as successful as I've been over the years. But again the most important part were the skills I learned in a very short period of time.

I'll say this. I have a degree in communications, emphasis in photography and another in media production. I graduated in the late 80's. Talent is still the key to making a living in photography. In college you will learn the tools and skills you need to create images, but if you dont have vision and passion, you wont learn it there. I had a number of classmates who went through the program with me who didnt have much talent. They could make technically good images, but lacking. None of them ever worked professionally. I think digital, and the information sharing tools available on the internet make a degree in photography less important. I dont mean an education is less important, get a degree in a related but marketable field, take photo classes discover whether you have what it takes to do the job and then pursue it with a passion. If not you will find yourself with a interesting but somewhat useless degree in a field dominated by people with talent and drive.

gonzogolf wrote in post #9136276
I'll say this. I have a degree in communications, emphasis in photography and another in media production. I graduated in the late 80's. Talent is still the key to making a living in photography. In college you will learn the tools and skills you need to create images, but if you dont have vision and passion, you wont learn it there. I had a number of classmates who went through the program with me who didnt have much talent. They could make technically good images, but lacking. None of them ever worked professionally. I think digital, and the information sharing tools available on the internet make a degree in photography less important. I dont mean an education is less important, get a degree in a related but marketable field, take photo classes discover whether you have what it takes to do the job and then pursue it with a passion. If not you will find yourself with a interesting but somewhat useless degree in a field dominated by people with talent and drive.

Absolutely you have to APPLY yourself and really have the passion. I also see the ones that were in my class and had the same passion/drive that I had are all doing very well some 23 years later. But its like that in any field though I think photography like any creative field you really need to be in school for all the right reasons.

I have NEVER been without a full time photography job since graduating in 1986 and have always made enough to support my family. All the lessons that I learned both in school and working for others have been so valuable in running my business.

Like I said an education is only as valuable as what you do with it.

Photography School VS Self Taught

airfrogusmc wrote in post #9136236
We'll see how that works for ya in the future. If you don't have a strong specialty with strong skills then the GWCs are going to be your competition. I've been watching the trends for a very long time now and if you ain't got the skills, connections and a specialty that requires special skill sets your gonna get eaten alive no mater how well you market. Well I guess if you compete with the GWCs price wise but you won't buy the house and send the kids to college at those prices.

I just shot some billboards and almost lost the job because I wasn't medium format. I convinced the art director that we could successfully bump up the image size by showing him some previous things I had done with genuine fractals and it worked just fine. So in a lot of cases 21 MPs is almost a necessity.

Kinda funny the ones that don't have the degree always say ya don't need it but the ones the have the degree in photography I don't hear saying that they wish they didn't have it. It could mean the difference between shooting wedding for 1200 a wedding or doing commercial work for 2K and up a day.

I can do the math and I'll take the education and the decent living. Oh thats right I did.

I wouldn't be working in the field I now am in if not for my degree or be near as successful as I've been over the years. But again the most important part were the skills I learned in a very short period of time.

I don't want to make photography a career. Sure, I want to do some on the side, but I don't want to make it a career: not enough money. I'm glad your on the job business training has worked out for you, however.

So let me see if I fully understand; you're not a full time photographer and never plan on being one and you have all this great advice on how to do it? Interesting.

If I would have taken the advice you've given I wouldn't be doing it full time either.

And you can make a VERY good living doing it, if you do it right.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #9148610
So let me see if I fully understand; you're not a full time photographer and never plan on being one and you have all this great advice on how to do it? Interesting.

If I would have taken the advice you've given I wouldn't be doing it full time either.

And you can make a VERY good living doing it, if you do it right.

nphsbuckeye wrote in post #9135234
It seems the survey is that if you're working for someone or high end commercial, knock yourself out obtaining a BFA. If you're going to work for yourself, make sure you're really good at marketing.

I said, "the survey says," thus repeating what others have said. However, as what you can see with many products, outstanding marketing usually trumps the product. Perception is key. Afterall, Bud Light is America's best selling beer, but far, far away from the richest. (From what I've head, SGP and Becks are "light" German beers, but in richness of taste, are Ferraris to BL's Cavalier.)

And I never said you had to have a business degree, but rather be good at business. If you don't succeed at business, you'll have a very hard time making it. (Yes, on the job training does count, but know what you're doing.)

Define very. Perhaps I try to reach too high, but I doubt too many photographers are driving hand-built European sportscars.