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Thread started 03 Dec 2009 (Thursday) 17:59
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How Valuable is a Degree in Photography??

 
Karl ­ Johnston
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Dec 09, 2009 02:19 |  #61
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mikekelley wrote in post #9158273 (external link)
Allen is pretty smart, everyone should listen to what he says

I'll say, holy crap he should be writing books..or least a blog.

I'm pretty dumb but at least I have a blog to share it with the world :lol:

If there's one thing I've learned this past several months..being a pro photographer is like becoming a lawyer. Everyday you're studying, practicing and even when you're up there you're still working hard to keep competent with your competition. You have the guys who are doing the low end for 30k a year. You have the guys who are making hundred million dollar salaries in the high end..if not billions..you have the in between. That's a lot what like this is, a trade, a practice. A degree is very valuable..it will get you in the door, but do you need it? That's the thing about photography these days - an unregulated field and you can teach yourself without needing an instructor or studio master...but will those people not help?

Oh hell yeah they will. It'll be an insanely valuable experience...if you do it properly.

I hacked it, I'm not an expert, I get by, I'm not even a year in though but damn the things I have learned about this business....

Anyway.
OP:
I advise you do whatever you want or feel like it, who am I to decide if it's valuable or not to you. I have no idea who you are. I hope this thread helped you out though. Another thing too - what kind of photographer will you be? Put a studio photographer who does fetish and fashion for playboy and Victoria secret in a wedding or in a family portrait session...different specialty, different business. Narrow down what specialty you like, freelance till you figure it out, then decide..if you are an all in one guy, or maybe you just like running multiple businesses...

I sell high end fine art of the aurora. That's a really unique niche. I've only met 3 people between the ages of 20-60 who ever did this full time; solely this..in the high end fine art market to the scale that I do it. I move 15-35 prints a month. I sell internationally. I sell in Austria, in Poland, in England, in France, in Switzerland, I sell in the United States, I sell to Alberta, Alaska, Halifax (i can't remember which province that is...). That's a lot of prints. A ton of work and about 70% of it isn't photography related. I network with fine art gallery owners, hosts, museum curators and managers, retail owners, I deal out consignments, I talk to newspapers, I talk to radio shows, I get my name out there, I fill out proposals, I complete pitches, I chat with tourists, I chat with travels, I become friends with people who see me through my art, or see something through that art, I seek representation, I look for better printers, faster printers, cheaper printers, better quality printers, high end printers, I market and advertise and I target, I donate to charities, I regularly check up on every retail, every gallery for upcoming news or events, or what has sold and what hasn't, I track that, I keep a log of what does sell, what isn't appealing, what has sold...actually I take that last part back because I've lost track of where I put that book and along with that the figures too ....all of this is what being a professional fine art photographer is..though a lot of the time you're dual with retail too and seldom stock, though that really depends on your market.

Recently I started doing family portraits, portraits and maternity, personal portraits and let me tell you right now - DAMN I'm a newbie. My first 5 shoots I bet the client could have done a better job with a cellphone camera. A portrait photographer's business is completely different from a fine art photographer's business. These businesses are completely different; involving totally different hats. Totally different photography, totally different businesses and albeit refreshing to have a change...a different specialty which I don't have the same degree of experience in. I'm still a pro photographer, but it's like changing jobs all the same. Takes a bit to get used to the gear shift if you know what I mean..understand where things are filed, learn the ropes, remember the extensions. Both involve less photography than you would hope, sadly, depending on how you do it...I'm still learning, I think that's why everyone on this website is reading it actually.

Now why did I do that? I seem to be doing all right with my niche...why take on something completely different? You need to keep it fresh. Call it "continuing competency" or whatever. For me I needed a break from the above, I wanted to try something new to see what it was like, to see if maybe I'd enjoy it more..that's the beauty of it, there's nothing binding you in stone to one specialty; the skills are interchangeable. Like Allen was talking about on page 2 (top of the page); coming out of your comfort zone. Learning to see light and understand it on different levels..etc. Whatever you decide to do, school or not, it has to be doing just that...force you, or force yourself if you have the discipline to - go outside your comfort zone and TEST that knowledge to the limit. Experiment! There's the fun..you can do absolutely damn well near anything - achieve any vision, go to the very top in just one shot....can really put you through the door faster than anything would.

Find a niche is my advice. Learn how to become the best in that niche..and if you get bored of it, try out commercial..try out families, try out boudoir and erotic. The great thing about learning a trade like law, or plumbing, or electric or carpentry or photography or art or whatever or any career - you don't have to rock at it to get business. You just have to figure out how to get business. Theres a guy a couple of threads down who's pricing himself out a 100$ a day for his work...insane photographer, amazing photography skills, great lighting control.....I thought he was trolling or pulling someone's leg when he said he was only charging 100$ a day. Damn. Well I've been there too. You learn and move on. Give him a few months and I'm sure he'll work his way into the mid range, if not the hi-end market once he understands how to properly run his business to support itself.

Find something you can specialize in. Learn as much as you can. Intern if necessary, practice frequently...find something that you enjoy doing, and whatever you go about learning to become that is a worthwhile experience in my opinion. Be it a degree, or as an assistant to a mentor, or whatever...find something you can be called the king at..and don't let it get to your head like I do sometimes (external link). (shameless plug: i do it for the print sales ;))


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brianodom
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Oct 31, 2013 15:15 |  #62

Karl Johnston wrote in post #9162745 (external link)
I'll say, holy crap he should be writing books..or least a blog.

I'm pretty dumb but at least I have a blog to share it with the world :lol:

If there's one thing I've learned this past several months..being a pro photographer is like becoming a lawyer. Everyday you're studying, practicing and even when you're up there you're still working hard to keep competent with your competition. You have the guys who are doing the low end for 30k a year. You have the guys who are making hundred million dollar salaries in the high end..if not billions..you have the in between. That's a lot what like this is, a trade, a practice. A degree is very valuable..it will get you in the door, but do you need it? That's the thing about photography these days - an unregulated field and you can teach yourself without needing an instructor or studio master...but will those people not help?

Oh hell yeah they will. It'll be an insanely valuable experience...if you do it properly.

I hacked it, I'm not an expert, I get by, I'm not even a year in though but damn the things I have learned about this business....

Anyway.
OP:
I advise you do whatever you want or feel like it, who am I to decide if it's valuable or not to you. I have no idea who you are. I hope this thread helped you out though. Another thing too - what kind of photographer will you be? Put a studio photographer who does fetish and fashion for playboy and Victoria secret in a wedding or in a family portrait session...different specialty, different business. Narrow down what specialty you like, freelance till you figure it out, then decide..if you are an all in one guy, or maybe you just like running multiple businesses...

I sell high end fine art of the aurora. That's a really unique niche. I've only met 3 people between the ages of 20-60 who ever did this full time; solely this..in the high end fine art market to the scale that I do it. I move 15-35 prints a month. I sell internationally. I sell in Austria, in Poland, in England, in France, in Switzerland, I sell in the United States, I sell to Alberta, Alaska, Halifax (i can't remember which province that is...). That's a lot of prints. A ton of work and about 70% of it isn't photography related. I network with fine art gallery owners, hosts, museum curators and managers, retail owners, I deal out consignments, I talk to newspapers, I talk to radio shows, I get my name out there, I fill out proposals, I complete pitches, I chat with tourists, I chat with travels, I become friends with people who see me through my art, or see something through that art, I seek representation, I look for better printers, faster printers, cheaper printers, better quality printers, high end printers, I market and advertise and I target, I donate to charities, I regularly check up on every retail, every gallery for upcoming news or events, or what has sold and what hasn't, I track that, I keep a log of what does sell, what isn't appealing, what has sold...actually I take that last part back because I've lost track of where I put that book and along with that the figures too ....all of this is what being a professional fine art photographer is..though a lot of the time you're dual with retail too and seldom stock, though that really depends on your market.

Recently I started doing family portraits, portraits and maternity, personal portraits and let me tell you right now - DAMN I'm a newbie. My first 5 shoots I bet the client could have done a better job with a cellphone camera. A portrait photographer's business is completely different from a fine art photographer's business. These businesses are completely different; involving totally different hats. Totally different photography, totally different businesses and albeit refreshing to have a change...a different specialty which I don't have the same degree of experience in. I'm still a pro photographer, but it's like changing jobs all the same. Takes a bit to get used to the gear shift if you know what I mean..understand where things are filed, learn the ropes, remember the extensions. Both involve less photography than you would hope, sadly, depending on how you do it...I'm still learning, I think that's why everyone on this website is reading it actually.

Now why did I do that? I seem to be doing all right with my niche...why take on something completely different? You need to keep it fresh. Call it "continuing competency" or whatever. For me I needed a break from the above, I wanted to try something new to see what it was like, to see if maybe I'd enjoy it more..that's the beauty of it, there's nothing binding you in stone to one specialty; the skills are interchangeable. Like Allen was talking about on page 2 (top of the page); coming out of your comfort zone. Learning to see light and understand it on different levels..etc. Whatever you decide to do, school or not, it has to be doing just that...force you, or force yourself if you have the discipline to - go outside your comfort zone and TEST that knowledge to the limit. Experiment! There's the fun..you can do absolutely damn well near anything - achieve any vision, go to the very top in just one shot....can really put you through the door faster than anything would.

Find a niche is my advice. Learn how to become the best in that niche..and if you get bored of it, try out commercial..try out families, try out boudoir and erotic. The great thing about learning a trade like law, or plumbing, or electric or carpentry or photography or art or whatever or any career - you don't have to rock at it to get business. You just have to figure out how to get business. Theres a guy a couple of threads down who's pricing himself out a 100$ a day for his work...insane photographer, amazing photography skills, great lighting control.....I thought he was trolling or pulling someone's leg when he said he was only charging 100$ a day. Damn. Well I've been there too. You learn and move on. Give him a few months and I'm sure he'll work his way into the mid range, if not the hi-end market once he understands how to properly run his business to support itself.

Find something you can specialize in. Learn as much as you can. Intern if necessary, practice frequently...find something that you enjoy doing, and whatever you go about learning to become that is a worthwhile experience in my opinion. Be it a degree, or as an assistant to a mentor, or whatever...find something you can be called the king at..and don't let it get to your head like I do sometimes (external link). (shameless plug: i do it for the print sales ;))

Crown Jewel of the thread


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stillinamerica
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Nov 01, 2013 15:08 |  #63

airfrogusmc wrote in post #9158042 (external link)
First and maybe most important is the fact that if you are very creative the chances of you doing well in business courses are going to be slim because the very things that make you creative are in direct conflict with the business side of the brian (left brain/right brian)


If you're in school and you are really creative you are probably not going to do well in business classes

I am sorry, but this is total nonsense. I couldnt' disagree more with these two statements, I would love to know what facts this is based on or what clinical studies. It is simply not true. Please don't listen to this.

To the OP. No one has ever asked me for my photography degree and I am completely booked for weddings for 2014. Granted though I am self taught and thats the way I learn best. I also run my own business.

I can see how a Photography degree may open doors for you in specific fields, though I know not which ones.

If you run your own business, it does not matter. If you want to be hired by someone else, I think it may matter, thats my thinking.


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airfrogusmc
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Nov 01, 2013 15:31 |  #64

stillinamerica wrote in post #16416639 (external link)
I am sorry, but this is total nonsense. I couldnt' disagree more with these two statements, I would love to know what facts this is based on or what clinical studies. It is simply not true. Please don't listen to this.

To the OP. No one has ever asked me for my photography degree and I am completely booked for weddings for 2014. Granted though I am self taught and thats the way I learn best. I also run my own business.

I can see how a Photography degree may open doors for you in specific fields, though I know not which ones.

If you run your own business, it does not matter. If you want to be hired by someone else, I think it may matter, thats my thinking.

So you are saying that my personal experience is total nonsense? :rolleyes: There are a lot of other areas in photography that you can make a very good living besides weddings. Some actually may be a lot more lucrative and a lot more stable.

Man this is an old thread....




  
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thedcmule2
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Nov 01, 2013 20:07 |  #65

No one is asking a photographer if he has a degree or not. They're looking at this experience and portfolio.

What the hell does a degree prove in terms of photography skills anyway? Nada. Better to get one in business so you can learn how to operate your photo biz or not get one at all, and put the money into your startup.




  
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airfrogusmc
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Nov 01, 2013 20:38 |  #66

Its' the knowledge and the connections that so important.
https://photography-on-the.net …php?p=9130442&p​ostcount=6

It's only as valuable as what you do with it. The knowledge can be priceless if you get into the right school and apply yourself.




  
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proimages
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Nov 01, 2013 22:04 |  #67

Patrick wrote in post #9130298 (external link)
Business education is a valuable resource no matter what business you end up in. Even if it's photography, the business part eats up more time and is equally, if not more important, than the photography part.

^^ great advice!


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stillinamerica
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Nov 03, 2013 20:03 |  #68

Airfrog, I am saying that this "
Originally Posted by airfrogusmc

First and maybe most important is the fact that if you are very creative the chances of you doing well in business courses are going to be slim because the very things that make you creative are in direct conflict with the business side of the brian (left brain/right brian)


If you're in school and you are really creative you are probably not going to do well in business classes
"

Is nonsense. It is. I didn't say anything about your experience.

You are right it's an old thread, actually one I seem to have commented on a few years ago, but it's a good topic.


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memoriesoftomorrow
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Nov 03, 2013 23:07 as a reply to  @ stillinamerica's post |  #69

"If you're in school and you are really creative you are probably not going to do well in business classes"

I guess that makes me not very creative then given that my degree was in Accounting and Financial management :(


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airfrogusmc
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Nov 04, 2013 07:13 |  #70

HMMM so the right brained left brained thing is all a bunch of crap. I said you PROBABLY wouldn't do well. So I guess the 25 + years of doing this full time was a fluke. Every really successful photographer I know has a a great team behind him. Ones that have studios have studio managers to run the studio. Commercial photographers when getting started usually hire reps to rep them. Thats how they market. And they all have great accountants as I do to help them not only with the books but to give them financial advise. No one can do all well and the really successful and creative photographers I know hire others that do what they do well to help. That gives them the time to do what they do well. Create.

Most really successful chefs either partner with a good business person or hire a manager to run the business side of things. Most really successful physicians all have office managers. They know they can't do everything well. Why do photographers think it's a good idea to do it all?

I have seen'm come and go over the years. The ones that seem to crash and burn the hardest and get the most burned out are the ones that try and do it all. They love photography but what happens is they wind up not creating. Their edge slips because they wind up spending most of the day doing things they don't like and didn't become photographers to do. They have no time to be creative. It starts showing in their work.....

The ones that have had real longevity and still love what they do are usually the ones that were smart enough to realize that they can't do it all. They get those that do what they do really well to help in those areas that they might not like and are weaker in. Only so much time in the day; I know how I want to spend it and it ain't doing the books. But thats me. I'll keep trying to keep my creative edge.

You want to work for IBM then major in business. Those courses are great for preparing you for that world. Take some business classes and some marketing classes but I can tell you that I learned more in a month of what to do and what not to do as far as running a successful photography business by working for a successful photographer than all my marketing and business classes combined.

And remember it's also rare that an MBA right out of college opens their own business. Usually they work for a corporation or someone for a while. Why should photography be any different? Most of the really useful things I learned about running a successful photography business I learned from successful photographers.




  
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brianodom
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Nov 19, 2013 11:17 |  #71

memoriesoftomorrow wrote in post #16422496 (external link)
"If you're in school and you are really creative you are probably not going to do well in business classes"

I guess that makes me not very creative then given that my degree was in Accounting and Financial management :(

bw!


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