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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
Thread started 08 Dec 2009 (Tuesday) 19:47
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Printing digital to a c-print: white point / black point???

 
René ­ Damkot
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Dec 09, 2009 10:53 |  #16

neumanns wrote in post #9164217 (external link)
255,255,255 prints as no ink

If your paper is warmish...let's say 254,252,247, Anything over these values will not render.

Excuse me?

Are you saying that if you have 255,253,248 in a file in the above example, no ink will be put on the paper?


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neumanns
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Dec 09, 2009 11:04 |  #17

No Rene I re-read that and don't see "no ink will be put on the paper" anywhere in that....your computer must be playing tricks on you;)


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René ­ Damkot
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Dec 09, 2009 11:21 |  #18

Hahaha. :lol:
What do you mean by "will not render" then?


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neumanns
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Dec 09, 2009 11:31 |  #19

It means my white ink cartridge must be empty......Because it does not lighten the paper.

Can I just refill it with some www.liquidpaper.com/ (external link)


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René ­ Damkot
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Dec 09, 2009 12:16 |  #20

Thanks for the dictionary :rolleyes:

There is no need to lighten the paper. By definition, 255,255,255 is "no ink", so is "paper white". Whatever "color" that paper "white" happens to be.

Ink will be put on the paper if the file has 255,253,248 in a given spot.
That will be visible on the paper. So it will render (be represented).


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kkamin
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Dec 09, 2009 15:21 |  #21

Lowner wrote in post #9164481 (external link)
Kevin,

In that case we have both misunderstood, because it certainly sounds as though you don't "get it".

Whether a paper is white/off white/cream is not relevent as long as the image has been checked by soft proofing. Actual tonal values are less an issue than how the image looks. The whites will not be white, but that does not mean that they don't appear to be, ditto the blacks. The human brain is superb at compensating.

I use a Hahnemuhle Torchon paper which is a heavily textured matte fine art "cardboard" with almost a cream colour, yet with the right paper profile, the images I print on it compare side by side to the same image printed on Epsons Premium Glossy paper, which has all sorts of chemical whiteners added to it. It is down to what paper suits the subject at the end of the day.

Thanks for taking the time to respond but you are not addressing anything I was asking in the original question or in my follow up. I fully realize what you see on screen is not going to be exactly what you see in the physical world--the computer monitor is a light source (additive light) and a piece of paper is substractive light. That has never been my issue. I am not the Mister Wizard of color theory, but I have a BFA and have an understanding of human's relative perception of color and tone. Again this is not the purpose of my post. My issue is with printing chromogenic and if it has the same issues that inkjet does. I am asking about whether setting the white and black points to a 95/5 is beneficial in chromogenic printing.

And I am asking how you would make a print with a paper white border (which would be valued at 255,255,255 in an RGB color space) with a clean white background in a portrait (same RGB values), but not have the image's background bleed with the white border. In darkroom days, this would never be an issue, because you wouldn't be able to print a clean white background in a print, because some light (a very, very small amount) would still be striking that part of the paper--no matter how dense your negative is, it still transmits a tiny bit of light. This clean white background created in a darkroom would separate from the white border, since the white border was covered by easel blades and stayed paper white. How would you replicate this with digital c-printing? You can't have your background bleeding into your border. So how do you adjust the tonal curves to make it look good. I'm looking for answers coming from real world experience with the issue. Please don't respond back about relative tones of paper, that is not my question. Thanks for reading.


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cicopo
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Dec 09, 2009 15:39 |  #22

Well I don't have the answer but earlier this afternoon I was taking one of the tutorials at Lynda.com but by a different teacher who also referred to the 95 / 5 rule as one of the things he lives by.


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kkamin
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Dec 09, 2009 15:45 |  #23

cicopo wrote in post #9166259 (external link)
Well I don't have the answer but earlier this afternoon I was taking one of the tutorials at Lynda.com but by a different teacher who also referred to the 95 / 5 rule as one of the things he lives by.

Cool, man. What course is it? Who is the teacher? :)


I shoot with a disposable Dora the Explorer camera
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René ­ Damkot
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Dec 09, 2009 16:04 |  #24

kkamin wrote in post #9166140 (external link)
because some light (a very, very small amount) would still be striking that part of the paper--no matter how dense your negative is, it still transmits a tiny bit of light.

that bit of light would not darken the photo paper, because it would not be over the threshold...
So the paper would remain white.
That's why darkroom illumination works; photographic paper isn't insensitive to it, just very little sensitive.

Otherwise, when would photo paper longer be white? After 1 Second exposure? 0.3 seconds? 0.1 second?

Simply put: if the negative is dense enough, the photo paper will remain white.


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
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PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
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kkamin
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Dec 09, 2009 16:18 |  #25

René Damkot wrote in post #9166444 (external link)
that bit of light would not darken the photo paper, because it would not be over the threshold...
So the paper would remain white.
That's why darkroom illumination works; photographic paper isn't insensitive to it, just very little sensitive.

Otherwise, when would photo paper longer be white? After 1 Second exposure? 0.3 seconds? 0.1 second?

Simply put: if the negative is dense enough, the photo paper will remain white.

I'm talking about color darkrooms not B&W. Color darkrooms do not run under safe lights, they are completely dark.

Yes, if you expose the densest negative in the world for 0.1 sec, it probably won't expose. But exposures for properly exposed negatives run at least a few seconds and some light is getting to the "clean white" areas of the image on the paper and is toning down the areas a small amount. Plus I'm sure their is some bounce occuring from light striking the white paper, bouncing back up to the enlarger lens and bouncing down on the print in all areas a super small amount. I will stand by you can't get a paper white area on a color darkroom print, if the negative is of normal density and the exposure is of a reasonable time--it will tone up slightly. But you don't notice it too much because all the tones in the print are relative and that will appear as the brightest spot.


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Lowner
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Dec 09, 2009 16:26 as a reply to  @ René Damkot's post |  #26

Kevin,

"And I am asking how you would make a print with a paper white border (which would be valued at 255,255,255 in an RGB color space) with a clean white background in a portrait (same RGB values), but not have the image's background bleed with the white border".

I'm still not getting your point. What do do you mean by "images bleed with the white border"?

Extreme highlights will by their very nature be close to being blown, maybe actually so (i.e. your 255,255,255). And depending on what the subject matter I can easily imagine a scene where a blown highlight is right on the edge of the frame, for example a street light. What I don't understand is why this is seen as a problem that must be addressed except in a purely artistic sense.

I remember a famous Vogue cover shot that was simply a totally blank white background, with an eye and lips only, no skin, no nothing. It works wonderfully.


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cicopo
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Dec 09, 2009 17:56 |  #27

The author is Taz Tally & the lesson is CS4 : Color Correction. I was looking at a couple of the lessons to see whether I'd do the entire thing, which I think I will over the next few days. He mentioned the 95 / 5 in one of the lessons in section 6. My rural wireless dropped the connection about 1/2 way through one of the lessons & I gave up for today.


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kkamin
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Dec 09, 2009 19:25 |  #28

Lowner wrote in post #9166610 (external link)
Kevin,

"And I am asking how you would make a print with a paper white border (which would be valued at 255,255,255 in an RGB color space) with a clean white background in a portrait (same RGB values), but not have the image's background bleed with the white border".

I'm still not getting your point. What do do you mean by "images bleed with the white border"?

Extreme highlights will by their very nature be close to being blown, maybe actually so (i.e. your 255,255,255). And depending on what the subject matter I can easily imagine a scene where a blown highlight is right on the edge of the frame, for example a street light. What I don't understand is why this is seen as a problem that must be addressed except in a purely artistic sense.

I remember a famous Vogue cover shot that was simply a totally blank white background, with an eye and lips only, no skin, no nothing. It works wonderfully.

The background of the Vogue cover shot is referred to as "clean white" and the white background is lit with up to four times (1.5 - 2 stops) as much light as the main light coming from the subject. The problem is how do you print that type of picture and have a border. That type of background is going to read (255,255,255) in an image editor...the same as the white border. You will not know where the image starts or the border ends--it'll look really stupid. If you are thinking about bleed prints (without borders), that is Walmart--8x10+ size borderless prints imo look as tacky as hell. If you get away from the soccer mom demographic of clients and are aiming to produce higher end work, I think borders become a part of your prints. Art prints in my experience always have borders. It allows the image to remain uncropped (the size of the paper isn't dictating the final size of the image) and it allows the image to sit nicely in a defined area, surrounded by a neutral tone--it sets up matting nicely too. Borders are important to me. Anything above a 5x7 I am by default printing with a nice size border--I don't think my work is that awesome, but I don't like cropping my work, I frame it a certain way for a reason. Sorry I went off on a tangent.

So the question is how do you print an image with a "clean white" background and give it a border while making it still look good after the curves adjustment?


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I have a special 18-55mm lens made from tree bark and unicorn farts
I start uncontrollable fires for my lighting
www.kevinkaminphoto.co​m (external link)

  
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kkamin
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Dec 09, 2009 19:26 |  #29

cicopo wrote in post #9167107 (external link)
The author is Taz Tally & the lesson is CS4 : Color Correction. I was looking at a couple of the lessons to see whether I'd do the entire thing, which I think I will over the next few days. He mentioned the 95 / 5 in one of the lessons in section 6. My rural wireless dropped the connection about 1/2 way through one of the lessons & I gave up for today.

Thanks, I'll check it out!


I shoot with a disposable Dora the Explorer camera
I have a special 18-55mm lens made from tree bark and unicorn farts
I start uncontrollable fires for my lighting
www.kevinkaminphoto.co​m (external link)

  
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Lowner
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Dec 10, 2009 05:25 as a reply to  @ kkamin's post |  #30

Kevin,

Other than putting a black (or any other colour) edge on the image, say 5 pixels or even less, I don't know of a way.

I don't subscribe to reducing the already limited dynamic range of the paper to something even less by artificially cutting back the image data. I remember a fashion for very lightly fogging paper before it was placed under the enlarger and I never saw the sense in that either.

But we all have our own ideas about what makes a successful image. It would be a less interesting world if we all thought alike. Good luck in your printing.


Richard

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Printing digital to a c-print: white point / black point???
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